Introversion/Extroversion

[wolfy]

I'd have to be an extrovert then because I don't get this. I don't see any gap. I guess you could say there is me expressing myself but it isn't a stable sense of self. There is no separation. Or is there...

 

[Lady_X]

Well fuck. Who you calling crazy?!

I don't actually think it's possible to explain this to an extrovert. But I wrote this elsewhere.

haha! you!! and all the others like you!! haha no really...okay i might get it...the sense of you is the same as the sense of me...just you don't feel like you express it well...so it's just an expression thing? which makes you feel like no one truly sees you...unless they know you very well...so...that creates the fractured sense of self...but...it's really just a feeling that comes from a lack of expression?

am i even saying anything there? i can't tell. i may have just gone in a circle spewing words with no meaning...shit sorry about that.

 

[Thalassa]

hmmm...I can relate to this seperate sense of self...

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

You did. The lack of expressing an opinion causes a disconnect between you and the person who you aren't expressing your opinion too and thus making yourself feel isolated and retreating inward more. The disconnect only makes it appear as if a second 'inner world' is being created when you still only have one world, it just the fact that you aren't showing it. Yes?

 

[redacted]

Extroverts constantly check the environment because if they don't, their thoughts may cease to be relevant to the current situation.

Introverts constantly check with themselves because if they don't, their experiences may cease to be relevant to who they are.

 

[Lady_X]

You did. The lack of expressing an opinion causes a disconnect between you and the person who you aren't expressing your opinion too and thus making yourself feel isolated and retreating inward more. The disconnect only makes it appear as if a second 'inner world' is being created when you still only have one world, it just the fact that you aren't showing it. Yes?

right okay yes...i gots it. i think. like visiting a country where you don't know the language...you're still you but you feel locked inside because no one understands you. i get it. i think.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

right okay yes...i gots it. i think. like visiting a country where you don't know the language...you're still you but you feel locked inside because no one understands you. i get it. i think.

Exactly.

 

[Salomé]

I'd have to be an extrovert then because I don't get this. I don't see any gap. I guess you could say there is me expressing myself but it isn't a stable sense of self. There is no separation. Or is there...

Sensors are more rooted in reality than us airy-fairy types.

haha! you!! and all the others like you!! haha no really...okay i might get it...the sense of you is the same as the sense of me...just you don't feel like you express it well...so it's just an expression thing? which makes you feel like no one truly sees you...unless they know you very well...so...that creates the fractured sense of self...but...it's really just a feeling that comes from a lack of expression?

am i even saying anything there? i can't tell. i may have just gone in a circle spewing words with no meaning...shit sorry about that.

That's ok. We're used to it.

It's not that I can't express myself. It's that y'all aren't able to understand my awesomeness.

Seriously though. Much of an INTPs world is non-verbal. It's a huge overhead to translate what goes on in our heads into a language that makes sense to anyone else. That's why it's so exhausting.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

It's a huge overhead to translate what goes on in our heads into a language that makes sense to anyone else. That's why it's so exhausting.

I love having an excuse not to explain my actions.

 

[Salomé]

I love having an excuse not to explain my actions.

Is that why you keep changing your type?

 

[Lady_X]

Sensors are more rooted in reality than us airy-fairy types.


That's ok. We're used to it. <---- that was about me spewing nonsense wasn't it?! grrr... haha...jk i know ya are.

It's not that I can't express myself. It's that y'all aren't able to understand my awesomeness.

Seriously though. Much of an INTPs world is non-verbal. It's a huge overhead to translate what goes on in our heads into a language that makes sense to anyone else. That's why it's so exhausting.

okay no...really i totally get that. i feel that way about fi stuff i think...they haven't invented words for a lot of that yet...it seems....whatever..

takes too much energy to try and explain it because it is just so complex and intricate and you often feel it's just too much to get into...too many words when most people want short answers...or what?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Is that why you keep changing your type?

Right for the kill shot. I'd say that explains itself through pure ambivalence... So in a way, yes.

 

[Salomé]

okay no...really i totally get that. i feel that way about fi stuff i think...they haven't invented words for a lot of that yet...it seems....whatever..

takes too much energy to try and explain it because it is just so complex and intricate and you often feel it's just too much to get into...too many words when most people want short answers...or what?

Something is always lost in translation.

 

[Lady_X]

right yeah there are things i feel that way about too....but i guess possibly inxx's feel that way more?

 

[Salomé]

right yeah there are things i feel that way about too....but i guess possibly inxx's feel that way more?

Yes. Because we are the awesomest.

Honestly, I have no idea how other people experience reality. I can only speak for the disconnect that I experience, much of the time.

 

[wolfy]

Psychological Types

The general-attitude types, as I have pointed out more than once, are differentiated by their particular attitude to the object. The introvert's attitude to the object is an abstracting one; at bottom, he is always facing the problem of how libido can be withdrawn from the object, as though an attempted ascendancy on. the part of the object had to be continually frustrated. The extravert, on the contrary, maintains a positive relation to the object. To such an extent does he affirm its importance that his subjective attitude is continually being orientated by, and related to the object. An fond, the object can never have sufficient value; for him, therefore, its importance must always be paramount.

If I follow this I am extroverted. But this doesn't address the second function. I always feel a relation to the object, whether it is push or pull. I personally feel I am smack bang in the middle, with only a pull between objects causing frustration. I could be wrong though.

Am I missing something here on introversion/extroversion?

 

[Noon]

right yeah there are things i feel that way about too....but i guess possibly inxx's feel that way more?

I think I experience it often because I'm both very introverted and a Fi dom. I experience my inner world through "feeling tones" that can seem a bit vague to others, but intuitively understood to myself. I just "get it" very well, but it's very difficult to articulate. It's much easier to do so in writing, where you have the time to gather your thoughts, search for the perfect term and erase anything that may have clouded it. Actually, when I get nitpicky over wording, it's not that I want to be precise because I like everything to be technical, only that I'm searching for the perfect word that can evoke a similar feeling tone in the reader (so that they can "just get it" as well ). In real time, everything is more complicated because extroverts generally want fast responses or they feel they're being ignored/disrespected. Keeping up with their quickness by denying myself the opportunity to reflect eventually results in exhaustion. That's when I call time out.

 

[wolfy]

It feels like a waste of time to discuss stuff. You could just as well keep your mouth shut, listen, read, think, draw, write and make up your own mind. I suppose that makes me an introvert as much as anything.

Discussing and asking questions is a waste when you could just keep quiet and understand.

edit: that is only partly true...

The correct steps are

Preparation: Investigation, investigating the idea in all directions.
Incubation: Not thinking consciously about it.
Illumination: The idea presents itself.

 

[Noon]

It feels like a waste of time to discuss stuff. You could just as well keep your mouth shut, listen, read, think, draw, write and make up your own mind. I suppose that makes me an introvert as much as anything.

Discussing and asking questions is a waste when you could just keep quiet and understand.

Yeah, this too.

 

[wolfy]

My understanding is that according to Jung a split is an imbalance in the psyche. That is where the theory of balancing the dominant with the secondary came from.


from here

In his 1921 book Psychological Types, Jung described the introverted and extraverted general attitude types as being:

".... distinguished by the direction of general interest or libido movement..... differentiated by their particular attitude to the object.."

and

"....The introvert's attitude to the object is an abstracting one.... he is always facing the problem of how libido can be withdrawn from the object...... The extravert, on the contrary, maintains a positive relation to the object. To such an extent does he affirm its importance that his subjective attitude is continually being orientated by, and related to the object...."

(The 1923 translation by H Godwyn Baynes is understandably a little awkward for modern times. 'Abstracting' in this context means 'drawing way', from its Latin root meaning. 'Libido' in this context probably means 'desire', although the word seems first to have appeared in earlier translations of Freud, who used it in a more sexual sense.)

This makes some sense to me. I can feel the problem of how desire can be drawn away from the object.