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  1. #1
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Talking How Good Is Sim's Ni Definition?

    What do you think of this definition Sim posted on personalitycafe?

    I find it really interesting - especially the examples. It seems to be missing the essence of some things though.

    "Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles. Rather than directly confront an issue, Ni will often solve problems by simply looking at them from a different angle. Doing a bunch of community service sucks? Just think of it as an opportunity to get lots of exercise! Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories, a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.

    Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than everyone else. They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others.

    As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does. To Ni, I get the significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer, but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.

    For another example, Isaac Newton (INTJ) invented calculus and didn't bother telling anyone about it for 20 years. Ne would have been out showing the idea to others and changing it based on their reactions--but not Ni!

    As a result Ne is typically much better at putting its abstract ideas into terms that others will understand than Ni.

    On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible."

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    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I'll start with one comment on this sentence.

    "They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others."

    The first part seems like it might make sense actually. I don't understand the second half of the sentence though.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Sim who?

  4. #4
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'll start with one comment on this sentence.

    "They are threatened by the idea that there might be any perspective or angle they cannot see, and as such they sometimes overestimate their own ability to fully grasp and work around the attitudes of others."

    The first part seems like it might make sense actually. I don't understand the second half of the sentence though.
    Translation: NTJs think they're smarter than everyone/that everyone who doesn't approach life the way they do must be a moron, because there can't possibly be anything they missed about any other perspectives.

    By the way I thought this was going to say, "How good is Sim's Ni?" in which case I was going to respond, "Nonexistent."
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #5
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What do you think of this definition Sim posted on personalitycafe?

    I find it really interesting - especially the examples. It seems to be missing the essence of some things though.

    "Ni, or introverted iNtuition, is dominant for INxJ, secondary for ENxJ, tertiary for ISxP and inferior for ESxP. It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles...
    This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".

  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world. Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...

    ...As with all introverted functions, Ni doesn't pay attention to external conditions outside the self so it doesn't care if anyone else grasps the ideas the same way the Ni user does. To Ni, I get the significance and that's all that matters. Ni songwriters (e.g. Thom Yorke, INFJ) will often write lyrics that could not possibly make any sense to other people without a direct explanation from the writer, but they don't really care because Ni considers intuition such a personal thing that it can't make its perspective/ideas clear to others very easily at all, and frequently doesn't even bother trying.
    Jonatha Brooke's another. And what I like about that style is that I'm left trying to move into that world and trying to understand the framework she (or whoever) is coming from. It's a mystery I'm trying to unravel but never will quite be able to, especially because it's not coming through thoughts but from look, feel, personal perspective, essence.

    On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible."
    Best, most clear paragraph in your post. I think you nailed this. The comparison to Te vs Ne is very useful.

    Likewise, if you spin it around, Ti is annoyed by Ni, which seemingly tries to undermine its own sense of truth by saying, in effect, "But that is just ONE way of looking at things." Ni changes the assumptions underlying the framework within which Ti is operating.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".


    Mind you, I've seen SolitaryWalker do somthing very similar. Hopefully he isn't nowadays - I haven't seen him post on the subject for a while. It was getting tedious.

    Anyway, shhh, damn you, Tater! I wanted to see where Sim's imaginative use of synechdoche was going to take him!
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  8. #8
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Sim who?
    SimulatedWorld.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    SimulatedWorld.
    Who's that?

  10. #10
    Glycerine
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    That creepy guy in your dreams...

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