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  1. #291
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I hate to develop a "my experience" statement, but it really is my experience that INTJs often feel some form of personal inadequacy at the relative unpredictability of the rest of the world. A lack of determinable form, maybe. Like a Kandinsky piece; an array of color and geometry outside the discernible reach of our intellectual fingertips - unless - adequately measured and cataloged. A psychological airbag.

    The specific rationale for this "safety-netting" is relative to the user; it's tough enough to pinpoint a shared psychological characteristic without oversimplifying, so I hope you forgive me for waxing anecdotal at this point.

    My security issues stem from a lack of financial stability when I was a kid. Moved around a lot and rarely had enough time to cultivate and maintain long-term relationships. As a result, I was forced into the social periphery. Spent a lot of time alone. Resolved to work hard enough to avoid exposing my children to the same kind of erratic behavior. Any pursuit of "power" serves this fundamental goal.

    As such, my determination at work is often confused for a sense of misguided superiority. Or untoward ambition.

    Truth is, I'm just focused. I want to work hard now to avoid what happened before.
    It's good you know your motivations.

    I've always been driven by a strong need for financial independence. I recall having this drive from a very young age and don't even remember where it came from or why. It is absolutely a "security" thing. I don't want to have to worry about money. So, looking at Sim's original list of "value" items, wealth has always been high on my list, though never at the top. I started with nothing.

    Really, we should probably think these things through more. Focus is great but we need to make sure that we have the right goals in mind. Money, influence, power - none of these things brings true happiness. It is easier to be happy if you have money than to be happy without it but once you hit a certain threshold, I'm not sure it matters.

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  2. #292
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    *judges you all... maintains edge*


    Ni, specifically, is supposed to be able to find the connection that others can't. It's supposed to be that Ni creates knowledge as opposed to discovering it from outside. The distinction is slim, and is a perceived difference based on Ni being introverted--it perceives itself to be independent of the outside world. An Ni user will understand himself to be manipulating or synthesizing connections, finding what wasn't there before. How does it achieve this? I don't know, but frameworks and models and archetypes are... well, Jung said that's what we're about, but where's the creativity?

    Introverted functions are cut off, deliberately, from external checks. There is some reality checking involved, but too much of that kind of nonsense, ironically, leads one astray--we map too closely to the real world and don't see the rest of what's there to see.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #293
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    I know this part of the discussion seemed to wrap up a couple days ago, and I hate to return to a potentially contentious issue, but I'm very interested in Sim's assertions about intro/extraversion and depth vs. breadth.

    The preference for precision that he associates with introversion, I always thought was simply Ti. Is this about Te/Ti, E/I, or (Fe,Ne,Se,Te)/(Fi,Ni,Si,Ti)?

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The only things that are 100% certain are tautologies. In order to accept that 2+2=4, we first must accept a common definition of the terms "2", "+", "=", and "4" which defines 2+2 as 4 in the first place.

    So yes, if we accept the rules of mathematics as defined by human culture, then it's objectively true that 2+2=4. But that's a meaningless tautology--"If we accept a system that necessitates two plus two being four, then it's absolutely true that two plus two is four." Do you see why this is a meaningless distinction?
    I see what you're saying, but I see absolutely no value in it. What possible reason is there not to accept the basic premises of mathematics? It can be interesting and illuminating to consider discrete approaches, but rejecting "the rules of mathematics as defined by human culture" forces us to close ourselves off from vast areas of knowledge. Wouldn't outright denial of those standards constitute insanity? How could one who rejected them function on a day-to-day basis?

    Not to get too circular with this thing, but I guess what I'm arguing is that certain premises -- such as the "system that necessitates two plus two being four" -- are themselves objective and inarguable.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    Any "absolute truth" requires some sort of arbitrary assumption to build from.
    I'm not sure I follow you here. What's arbitrary about the laws of mathematics?

    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    Moreover, isn't there a possibility that imprecision or expediency in a description could lead the audience to misunderstand that subject, regardless of whether the topic is objective or subjective?
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    Sure. What's your point?
    I guess it raises the question of what one's goal is in making that description public. It's the principle of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" -- if a poorly expressed idea reaches a large audience, mightn't its effect actually be the opposite of what the author intended? Don't you risk spreading the wrong idea if its expression reaches an extreme of imprecision? And if so, isn't that counter-productive?

    I'm not arguing for unlimited precision and perfectionism -- I wasn't really arguing for anything, just asking a question -- but isn't it in the author/speaker/whoever's interests that her/his audience attain some minimal level of understanding? I guess what I'm really asking is: aren't there limits on the utility of quantity at the expense of quality, just as there are limits on the utility of quality at the expense of quantity? This seems obvious to me; I don't feel like acknowledging those limits is a function of introversion or extraversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser
    Isn't "sacrific[ing] precision in order to make the ideas more easily accessible to others" the same as sacrificing the quality of an idea for the quantity of its dissemination?
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    Yes, it's precisely the same. Introversion chooses quality; extroversion chooses quantity. Now I want you to ask yourself why quality is inherently better than quantity.
    Well, I'm not sure it is. I think ideally there's some sort of balance. Hypothetically, I'd expect there to be a point of diminishing returns beyond which depth > breadth becomes counterproductive -- and vice versa: if an idea is too poorly expressed or over-simplified, reaching a large audience is useless (or even outright counterproductive) because the intended message is not conveyed in a comprehensible manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    From the extroverted perspective, quantity is preferable to quality because if we focus too much on quality we never actually apply our ideas to anything. We become obsessed with making them perfect and lose any and all realistic application in the process.
    This is what intrigues me. I've always thought of E/I primarily in social terms, and your description reads to me like one of the differences between Te and Ti; it would really change my view of things if this were more generally applicable to intro/extraversion. Could you expand on this a little?

    Also, I'd be interested in other opinions as well; extraverted Ti-users and introverted Te-users (I know there are several INTJs in this thread), does this resonate with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser
    And isn't there a danger, by emphasising quantity over quality, that a lot of people would learn bad ideas, rather than a few people learning good ones?
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld
    What you've just asked effectively reduces to: "But isn't introversion clearly better than extroversion?"
    I think you're reading between the lines. I meant my question literally, not trying to pass a particular judgment. Doesn't that risk exist, that at a certain point in the spectrum the quality of the idea expressed can be so far diluted as to be either useless or outright harmful?
    i just want to be a sweetheart

  4. #294
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's good you know your motivations.

    I've always been driven by a strong need for financial independence. I recall having this drive from a very young age and don't even remember where it came from or why. It is absolutely a "security" thing. I don't want to have to worry about money. So, looking at Sim's original list of "value" items, wealth has always been high on my list, though never at the top. I started with nothing.

    Really, we should probably think these things through more. Focus is great but we need to make sure that we have the right goals in mind. Money, influence, power - none of these things brings true happiness. It is easier to be happy if you have money than to be happy without it but once you hit a certain threshold, I'm not sure it matters.
    I completely agree with this. A large part of my current feelings of "security" stem not from being "powerful" or "wealthy", but from living well below my means. When I was shopping for a house, one bank I spoke to wanted to loan me twice as much as I really wanted to spend. (This was 2005, so if you're wondering where the crash came from, here's a data point.)

    In the end, I got the house I wanted, and my mortgage was substantially less than the rent I was paying previously. When the financially unstable times hit, I cut some unnecessary expenses, not because I couldn't "afford" them, but because I dislike spending money that I don't have to, for these self-same "security" reasons.

    So I use my INTJ "superpowers" to figure out how best to manage all of this, and to my great surprise, I end up doing fairly well. But my actual attitude toward money is that I don't want to be bothered by it. I don't want to have to think about it. It annoys me. I make all of my bills autopay, and I just audit my finances every few months or so to make sure nothing is awry. My money strategy isn't to get rich, it's to arrange my finances so that they don't worry me, so that they aren't a source of insecurity. I'd rather be able to sit back and think about things that are fun to think about, than worry about the damn money.

  5. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander
    It is easier to be happy if you have money than to be happy without it but once you hit a certain threshold, I'm not sure it matters.
    Have any of you (INTJs) actually put a figure to that threshold?

    I have known my own for a very long time...

  6. #296
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I just wanted to take a second and magnify this particular sentiment, uumlau, because I think you're spot-on here.

    I hate to develop a "my experience" statement, but it really is my experience that INTJs often feel some form of personal inadequacy at the relative unpredictability of the rest of the world. A lack of determinable form, maybe. Like a Kandinsky piece; an array of color and geometry outside the discernible reach of our intellectual fingertips - unless - adequately measured and cataloged. A psychological airbag.

    The specific rationale for this "safety-netting" is relative to the user.

    My security issues stem from a lack of financial stability when I was a kid. Moved around a lot and rarely had enough time to cultivate and maintain long-term relationships. As a result, I was forced into the social periphery. Spent a lot of time alone. Resolved to work hard enough to avoid exposing my children to the same kind of erratic behavior. Any pursuit of "power" serves this fundamental goal.

    As such, my determination at work is often confused for a sense of misguided superiority. Or untoward ambition.

    Truth is, I'm just focused. I want to work hard now to avoid what happened before.
    Have you decided that you're INTJ now?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #297
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's good you know your motivations.

    I've always been driven by a strong need for financial independence. I recall having this drive from a very young age and don't even remember where it came from or why. It is absolutely a "security" thing. I don't want to have to worry about money. So, looking at Sim's original list of "value" items, wealth has always been high on my list, though never at the top. I started with nothing.

    Really, we should probably think these things through more. Focus is great but we need to make sure that we have the right goals in mind. Money, influence, power - none of these things brings true happiness. It is easier to be happy if you have money than to be happy without it but once you hit a certain threshold, I'm not sure it matters.
    My dadinlaw was an INTJ raised poor, thus also was motivated strongly for financial independence. I grew up never knowing what city we would live in or how bills would get paid, thus, while i do not appreciate wealth for the sake of money or power...I appreciate financial independence. I recognize I have to provide that for myself and not rely on others.

    Funny, my intj toddler yesterday insisted on buying his own toy. The toy is a weekly reward for practicing violin and being good at his lesson. But he had a pocket full of quarters and insisted on using them to pay for part of his toy. Then he told me "This is my toy and I bought it."

    Also, with respect to this whole thread...it has been a great deal of fun...but I almost feel as though we never really heard the voice of the INFJs as they were drowned out by the NTP-NTJ discussion and the ENFP spirals. Only a few had a chance to speak up and I dont feel we captured their contribution adequately or fairly. Perhaps it would be of value to pose this same question in another thread but specifically request just the INFJs to give us their thoughts and feelings of how Ni works in their world? Just my 2c.

  8. #298
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    we dont ni'd no new definition...

    ouh wrong thread
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #299
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    we dont ni'd no new definition...

    ouh wrong thread
    we don't ni'd no thought control?

  10. #300
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Müller runs and he scores !!!!!!!! goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall

    a cent per bad joke and we gonna be rich in notime
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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