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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    What do you think of this definition Sim posted on personalitycafe?
    I think the description was weak at best.

    The only part that I found myself thinking "thumps up" was the last paragraph.

    Like most things Sim writes about functions that are not his own, this description was deeply biased by his own perspective. This wouldn't be so bothersome if he didn't constantly accuse others about the biases they possess.

    The piece would have been better titled not "a description of Ni", but a description of Ni from an Ne-dom's perspective, or, better yet, a description of Ni from simulatedworld.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".
    Excellent post.

    And, moreover, he's basically describing his conflicts and disagreements with these people.

    It makes the writing all sound very childish; I mean, could you imagine anything like it being in an academic journal or the like?

  3. #13
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    This fits. Everything after that is a non sequitur that describes how Ni might manifest in behaviors, rather than what Ni actually is. He's still anthropomorphizing the functions as if they are people, which is a strong indication that he's characterizing his experiences of those who predominately use Ni rather than talking about the functions themselves. In other words, he's stereotyping and not archetyping, which is a consequence of applied typology, and a cause of what SolitaryWalker calls "folk typology".
    On the one hand, I didn't disagree with the observations and illustrations. I liked them quite a lot but felt like something was missing.

    Really, describing Ni is pretty difficult I think.

    Getting more specific:

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander quoting Sim View Post
    It is an inward sense of abstract perceptual shift. Rather than imagine different ways we could change the outside world, Ni acknowledges many different ways we could change the subjective meaning of things to ourselves by looking at them from different angles.
    I like this but as the first statement in the definition, it sounds like this is the defining characteristic of Ni. It's certainly a key characteristic - a big part - but I don't know if it's the defining one.

    I tired to explain what I experience here:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1154299

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Ni leads you to try and see "through the smoke and mirrors" to what is REALLY going on below the surface, that other people are not perceptive enough to pick up on...so in its unhealthy form, it turns into conspiracy theories, a la Dale Gribble from King of the Hill.
    It's not just understanding what's going on below the surface - it's about understanding the essence of things and integrating the different elements or perspectives holistically. "Other people aren't perceptive enough to pick up on" reference probably isn't necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Strong Ni users like being the person behind the scenes who pulls all the strings (even better if most people don't even realize it) and understands the dynamics of everything on a deeper level than everyone else.
    This is probably true.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Translation: NTJs think they're smarter than everyone/that everyone who doesn't approach life the way they do must be a moron, because there can't possibly be anything they missed about any other perspectives.
    Wait - is this a characteristic of Ni or projection? What about INFJs?

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti) in the same way Ne appreciates freedom to change its plan of action abruptly (and thus is often annoyed by Te.) Ti users will tend to frame debates by first assigning precise definitions to terms, but Ni often objects to this by wondering: "How are we unconsciously limiting our understanding by assigning such rigid definitions in the first place?" Ni always seeks to escape the unconscious assumptions that limit its understanding of as many different conceptual viewpoints as possible."
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Best, most clear paragraph in your post. I think you nailed this. The comparison to Te vs Ne is very useful.


    Well, I totally agree with the first two of those sentences.

    But the thing about the Te description, and descriptions of any functions as sole and independent things, is that it completely leaves out how those functions interact with other functions, and the counterbalancing effects of those interactions.

    I am by no means rigid in my plans; I like to make them, and then improvise and change them around like crazy.

    Why? Because my Ni brings flexibility to my Te rigidity.

    It's really impossible, or, more accurately, absurd to think of the functions independently and in isolation. It's a vacuum that doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Likewise, if you spin it around, Ti is annoyed by Ni, which seemingly tries to undermine its own sense of truth by saying, in effect, "But that is just ONE way of looking at things." Ni changes the assumptions underlying the framework within which Ti is operating.
    Yeah, and we do so for the sake of accuracy...

    Which is more important: the Ti user's model, or the truth?


  5. #15
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander quoting Sim View Post
    Note that Ni doesn't think about how to change the outer world the way Ne does; it only thinks about how to change *the way we interpret* the outer world.
    This is true, but....

    Dominant Ni tends one to the notion that the outer world isn't real, or if it is real at all it is a product of distilled meaning, with the person being the distiller rather than the world. Extroverts and SPs may grant that the world is what it is, but they'll be somewhat surprised if anyone says they're rigid in their understandings. They'll be saying to themselves that on the inside I can understand it all in whatever way I want. All of those users will presumably however still have the Ni trick where one gets to go beyond what is.

    (It isn't really going beyond what is. It just feels like that because it is officially untied from the external world. But what it really is is the making of more productive connections between concepts than can easily be seen. In short, it's "the way we interpret the outer world.")

    On a side note: Ni appreciates definitional freedom (and thus is often annoyed by Ti)....
    No wonder INFJs are nutz.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Really, describing Ni is pretty difficult I think.
    True, but that doesn't make what he wrote any more accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I like this but as the first statement in the definition, it sounds like this is the defining characteristic of Ni. It's certainly a key characteristic - a big part - but I don't know if it's the defining one.
    Here, again, I don't think there's value in describing Ni by itself an saying that it doesn't desire to change the world: that's not it's role, that's Te's or Fe's role, and Ni works in conjunction with those functions to accomplish this goal.

    It is absurd to speak of it like this, as if it's in a vacuum.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's not just understanding what's going on below the surface - it's about understanding the essence of things and integrating the different elements or perspectives holistically.
    Very good alteration.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    "Other people aren't perceptive enough to pick up on" reference probably isn't necessary.
    Not at all.

    This is exactly what Tater was pointing to, and what I was pointing to when I said it was childish and would have no place in any publication of repute.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This is probably true.
    Agreed.

    At least regarding INTJs; probably not so regarding INFJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Wait - is this a characteristic of Ni or projection? What about INFJs?
    This is Sim's hatred of how NTJs interact with him -- nothing more.

    Once again: childish.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    No wonder INFJs are nutz.


    Nutzo moralizers.

    What ties them down from this freedom are their judgments about other people's behavior in terms of group morality...

    At least we're just trying to accomplish our personal goals and make our visions come to reality -- they want everyone to behave "correctly"...

    And then they try to use tert Ti to logically justify their Fe judgments, all while having the strong axiomatic perspective of Ni...

    Frightening blend there...

    :horor:

    (No offense, Ragashree. I think you're a good one. )

  8. #18
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    well, it was good enough to get 1000000 awards


    What does it mean for a function definition to be "good"? Internally consistent? Congruent with reality? Congruent with MBTI or Jung? Understandable? Useful?

    What exactly are we going for, here?

  9. #19
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    The way I see Ni is "Hm...this sounds stupid, but if you look at it this way, it might actually work."
    Weathergirl: District 38 is sunny. Slight rock showers this morning. Chance of rock showers into the afternoon—20 percent. District 39 is cloudy. Chance of rock showers this afternoon—10 percent.
    Edward: Bebop here here! Alright woo hoo!
    Weathergirl: Chance of rock showers today upgraded to 90 percent.
    Edward: Really.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainne View Post
    The way I see Ni is "Hm...this sounds stupid, but if you look at it this way, it might actually work."
    Spoken like an ISTP...

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