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  1. #111
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Ne vs. Se

    Ne sees and finds patterns and connections within and between information processed it tends to see "everything in every thing".

    Se processes information Se sees what it sees, in a literal sense.

    Ni vs. Si

    Ni takes in input, integrates it, catalogs it, and through some sort of divination receives a highly perceptually-based introspection into the universe, that is not visually seen, per se, but that is Known and strongly believed to be the essence/core of the transcendent, it can channel itself into the universe, perhaps it is a channel, a receptacle, a vessel, it knows the infinite, better yet, it knows the essence within the infinite, and it concerns itself with the eternal Truth, it sees beyond itself, it feels connected to its perceived universe, a part of of the infinite, and this perceived universe is representational of everything that it sees as essentially true and transcendent.

    Si collects and archives salient information, it holds on to its past experiences and memories to understand why the world is the way it is, and why things are the way they are, patterns emerge, correlations and causations are noted, new experiences make sense when you analyze past similar situations, what happened then? Why did it happen, how did you respond? Did your response yield positive gains? Si, the past foretells the future, history repeats itself, remember the lessons past experiences have taught you, never forget, your past defined you, your future will benefit from what you've stored and remembered, Si finds solace in engaging in experiences that are comfortable and pleasing. It will do everything in its power to avoid or overcome unwanted and uncomfortable experiences, it seeks comfort, it desires to only deal with comfortable situations, where it feels familiar, and at ease with its surroundings.

    Te vs. Fe

    Te cares not for precision, it cares for efficiency, time is of the essence, it cuts through what it perceives as bullshit, it's about the bottom line, getting shit done, executing action.

    Fe cares for localized harmony, it wants its community to be happy and harmonious, it will do whatever is necessary to maintain this localized harmony, it is innately metamorphic, and self-sacrificing, constantly changing to make things better, to make others happy, Fe is validated, manipulated by, and manipulates the community that it cares so much for, its identity is formed and based by those they care about.

    Ti vs. Fi

    Ti sees chaos, flagrant errors/holes everywhere, human-based errors, and this motivates it to define and constantly refine a model of thought that, within its own realm, is seamlessly precise, it is a linear way of organizing the chaos, of sifting through information and testing whether or not an idea is ridiculous, difficult, challenging, or retarded. It sifts, finds, defines, and refines, what makes sense and why, what doesn't make sense and why, Ti wants to find some kind of order and inherent logic within the universe.

    Fi first begins as a journey of understanding one's self objectively, it seeks to understand itself, it seeks to acquire self-awareness, Fi seeks and finds one's personal identity, who they are, why they are the way they are and why they do the things they do, then they use the same methodology on other human beings, they seek to understand the essence of human behavior, flawed and all, it puts itself in various human circumstances and puts a value of importance to the circumstance itself, and then judges the action(s) taken in each of these varied circumstances as categorically Wrong or Right, Fi judges itself the same way it judges others, no special treatment, Fi thinks, if I was there, as that person, within the same circumstance, how would I act? If I were being true to my "Self", acting, no *being* authentic, truthful, sincere, and honest to myself and others, in spite of my and other's egos, accepting what's happening and what it's feeling as they truly are, being self-aware and humble, being self-aware and courageous, doing what feels intrinsically and categorically Right despite the fact that often by doing so, friction will ensue. Fi needs to feel and understand what's categorically Right and what's categorically Wrong, universally and independently.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #112
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    ^ I'm no functional analyst, that was my first stab at trying to define the functions.

    Forgive me for my ignorance.

    :blushing:

    I just thought I should give it a shot.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #113
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Sorry, just read up on some previous posts, and I gotta agree with Tater.

    In REAL LIFE, whether one is extroverted by nature or introverted by nature does not define whether or not that person will be deep or shallow.

    Many people want to believe that extroverts just flit about and have absolutely no ability for self-reflection, introspection, and depth.

    This is a false generalization.

    For example, I have met many of introverts who are shallow, yes, shallow, as in they don't say much and they don't think much, they kinda just exist, in a bland human ficus kinda way.

    I have also met plenty of extroverts, myself included, who despite our predilection to become stimulated by external sources, utilize this stimulation, maximize it so the stimulation is not just simple stimulation, but stimulation that inspires, that facilitates growth, intellectual and personal. There are extroverts who seek what they deem to be *worthy* stimulation.

    Also, I know plenty of introverts who are entirely lacking of self-awareness and any type of intellectual depth.

    But, if we are gonna talk about typological functions, the only two extroverted functions that are more breadth inclined are Se and Ne, however, both of these ext. functions are anchored by an internal focus.

    Fe and Te are not about breadth at all, nor are they about depth, they are just functions that want their respective results/desires as fast and frequently as possible. These extroverted functions are not concerned with breadth, hell no, that takes too much time, they just want what they want/need asap, and hopefully will get at the very least satisfactory results.

    Fi is emotionally/psychologically deep, depending on the person who has/uses it.

    And, Ti is intellectually/logically deep, depending on the person who has/uses it.

    But, and I've witnessed it here PLENTY O' TIMES where someone seems to be all Ne, or all Fe, or all Ni, or all Ti, notice how I say *all* and I consistently find these people to be "soulless", identity-less, without a core, without an anchor, without a purpose, but that can be my Fi talking, who knows.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #114
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    OTOH, some human ficuses still aren't bland.. they just don't articulate things as well.. or right away.

  5. #115
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    For ENFPs, as we get older we start to use NeTe in combo together so love to play with models and play at dissection of the functions...but sorta know it is incomplete the whole time. We look at large numbers of patterns over large numbers of people.


    I don't want to be like that when I get older, I do need to develop my Te, as in, I need to learn to buckle down and fucking follow through, but in your description, what happens with the older ENFP and his/her development of Fi.

    *scratches head*

    I will always indulge and relish intellectual exploration, I love when my head explodes, but that's just for fun.

    My Fi is what keeps me centered and focused, compassionate, and patient, understanding and warm, empathetic and thoughtful, I never want this to go away, ever.

    Ever!

    I would feel dead without my Fi guiding me through the muck, it fuels me with light, truth, hope, goodness, virtue, and most of all... *meaning and depth*

    Granted, I am not trying to devalue how important it is for me to develop my Te in order to execute my dreams, to become more reliable and responsible, and that is something I am and am going to need to continue to work on, but what's the point of executing tasks that have and add no meaning to my and other's lives.

    Te will serve the purpose of my Fi values, but Ne plus Te, um, I don't get it, nor do I want it, I would hope that a mature ENFP develops her Te in order to actualize her dreams.

    So, please, Orobas, explain this to me, what do you mean by your statement that as ENFPs get older we start to use Ne and Te in combo, not only does that not make sense to me, but it seems direction-less.

    I read your description of what doing this yields, and as I already mentioned, Ne exploration for the sake of finding and amassing super-structures and systems of the amazing universe in which we live is surely fun, but that's just it, it's fun, as I grow older I want to be more emotionally stable, more connected with myself and others, and more responsible.

    But all of my objectives are Fi-based. :/
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  6. #116
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    OTOH, some human ficuses still aren't bland.. they just don't articulate things as well.. or right away.
    No, no, nooooo, no, noooooooo.

    I love me some introverts, and I love to crack their shells, and I will dig deep as hell, but some introverts, like many people, just are well, mediocre/dull/boring/dare I say stupid.

    The same goes for extroverts too.

    I'm just trying to debunk the preposterous theory that introverts are inherently more deep than extroverts, that's all.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #117
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    OK, as long as you're cracking shells


    I know what you mean though..

  8. #118
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Depth and breadth... I say suck it up extroverts, you conform. To find out how to do things, you look at other people and see what they do. To know what to think, you look outside yourself. Us introverts do have you beat in terms of independence. But don't fret, you have us beat in terms of relevance. As per freaking usual however, it won't hurt to see which of the same terms we are all using differently.

    Depth in these cases does and can only mean content arrived at independent of the context. Breadth does and can only mean, um,.... I dunno, context dependent accuracy?

    There's a difficulty though. It really sounds like people view functions as single-use items. Like enter a situation or think a thought, and that's it. But functions persist. They're not just for Christmas. So what does an educated function look like? What does an increasingly consciously controlled function with a usage history do? It seems a bit silly to say that history or background or continuity comes only from other functions--like driving a car is Se and tasting apple pie is Si and tax returns are Ne/Fe because they're such a party. There's some other story to add to this depth and breadth thing, and it's about what happens as a function matures.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #119
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Maybe not as much as they're wrong as much as it is there's no possible way they could be right. You can prove the former, while you can't prove the latter without access to the exact same information the other person has.
    onemoretime are you seeing Te and assuming it is absolute? It appears to be an utter assertion where in reality it is a statement that requests correction? (Granted somewhat grumpily at times) I also see INTJ to need reprocessing time when you correct their idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Most NTJs structure their lives around putting themselves into positions of power and influence. They want to control economic resources because that grants them the highest degree of control over others, the external world and ultimately their own lives. They enjoy feeling powerful and influential.

    Next time an NTJ you know makes fun of someone he considers to be lesser than himself, listen to the undertones. Listen to what NTJs target when they try to belittle someone--it almost invariably includes:

    "He has a low IQ",
    "He can't see how limited his perception is, but I can because I have the magic meta-perspective, hahaha", and/or
    "He has no money/power/influence over anything",

    because these are the things NTJs tend to value. Unfortunately many of them consider anyone who isn't looking for those things to be a complete idiot, and the air of arrogant self-supremacy that accompanies this view can be outright smotherin
    In bold in each step you assigning motive/internal thoughts to your opposite MBTI type. Just as you find it obnoxious when an Fi user tells you how you "feel", it is equally obnoxious to imply you understand what motivates someone or what they are thinking.

    Recognize that when you do this you are projecting yourself onto them and deducing motives based upon their actions-which are highly likely to be incorrect. To ever really try and understand another type you have to be able to step away from the things you cling very tightly to, and appreciate that perspective even if you find it morally or logically flawed. Until you do so, you are trapped in your own box and your answers will be incomplete.

    I suggested any rand as it makes for a very interesting case study-to see what it is like being in the Ni-Se perspective-judging world. But later i realized I dont think you can learn from this as you need Ti data, not Fi data, thus my apologies for the suggestion.

  10. #120
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SillySapienne View Post


    I don't want to be like that when I get older, I do need to develop my Te, as in, I need to learn to buckle down and fucking follow through, but in your description, what happens with the older ENFP and his/her development of Fi.

    *scratches head*

    I will always indulge and relish intellectual exploration, I love when my head explodes, but that's just for fun.

    My Fi is what keeps me centered and focused, compassionate, and patient, understanding and warm, empathetic and thoughtful, I never want this to go away, ever.

    Ever!

    I would feel dead without my Fi guiding me through the muck, it fuels me with light, truth, hope, goodness, virtue, and most of all... *meaning and depth*

    Granted, I am not trying to devalue how important it is for me to develop my Te in order to execute my dreams, to become more reliable and responsible, and that is something I am and am going to need to continue to work on, but what's the point of executing tasks that have and add no meaning to my and other's lives.

    Te will serve the purpose of my Fi values, but Ne plus Te, um, I don't get it, nor do I want it, I would hope that a mature ENFP develops her Te in order to actualize her dreams.

    So, please, Orobas, explain this to me, what do you mean by your statement that as ENFPs get older we start to use Ne and Te in combo, not only does that not make sense to me, but it seems direction-less.

    I read your description of what doing this yields, and as I already mentioned, Ne exploration for the sake of finding and amassing super-structures and systems of the amazing universe in which we live is surely fun, but that's just it, it's fun, as I grow older I want to be more emotionally stable, more connected with myself and others, and more responsible.

    But all of my objectives are Fi-based. :/
    Silly, I will take a poke here, but if the convo gets much longer we should diverge to the enfp common issues thread as to not divert the topic too much.

    With Fi....be very, very careful as it is exceptionally individualistic in nature. I have yet to hear anyone try to give a good account of how Fi matures. I suspect Fi is an amazingly complex mirroring function. You feed it external data, it mirrors that data, thus prompting the Fi user to physiologicaly mimic what they see. If that stimuli is painful, then the response is one of pain and the stimuli becomes associated with "bad". A stimuli that is pleasent brings internal happiness, thus gets labeled as good. Ne allows us to connect and amplify these incoming stimuli or perceive more than what we actually see. Everyday of our lives we are sorting and cataloging these stimuli sensations into an Si library of "good" and "bad" that we use to judge incoming new stimuli against. (I utterly loved your Si description btw. Totally awesome.)

    Eventually we have cataloged enough data that we start using the FiSi library to make choices/judgments. The INFPs and even some enfps will describe a sensation of actually measuring their own internal Fi against an external object-like it can be compared fairly objectively? Many of us, just have gut feelings-like a pinch in the gut or almost a stomach cramp or internal angst.

    But be very very careful about saying who does or does not use Fi as, due to the endless individuality, it can come in very diverse flavors. Since it is internal, you may see very little of it externally but that does not mean that deep seated values do not guide the ship.

    NeTe is for play - just in isolation, it is like solving a puzzle. Sometimes however their is a very real Fi need to solve a puzzle...thus Fi determines the orientation of the ship-but then to be able to step away from certain aspects of Fi as they will prevent an objective evaluation of the problem. (Fe does the same thing...note Sim attacking the INTJs in the thread. They offend him morally and this offense introduces flaws in his logical analysis)

    Fi is exceptionally complicated so it is almost like taking certain aspects and turning them off, while still tuning into other aspects. Solving a technical problem for me is like flying at 30,000 feet over the problem and finding a "lump". I turn off the values part of Fi that would make me offended, (or rather dismiss the offense as soon as I note it), but I maintain that ability to mirror the problem. Once I find the lump I tend to hand it off to an NT to resolve, but sometimes it is a very complicated people-hardware-software lump. But the lumps always stick out at me as being terribly obvious. In the same way people systems are terrible obvious to structure and understand. They are just flow charts of functions. Sim is right, in that you really can predict behaviors based upon type and function. Honestly it kinda bores me after awhile, so I have to remember to look at Fi as well to make people interesting again, otherwise I already know what they are going to do, before they do it.

    Sometimes this is bad as you know that no amount of coaching or communication can fix a particular combination of types in a combination of positions. Some older ENFPs tend to grow in Te quietly under Fi and will fire people in these circumstances. Its scary as they can seem so very nice, yet pat you on your back as they walk you to your car. They scare the shit out of people.

    Um...so Fi, one last thought on this wall o' text...Fi in enfps isnt meant to be Fi in INFPs. If INFPs externalized every Fi value they have, people would avoid them. But ENFPs are meant to externalize to a certain extent, so our values remain much more flexible, open ended. I note that you and Satine have the most resolution in Fi values of ENFPs on the board. It is beautiful, but it may serve to lock you onto a certain path at times...I dunno...Jung said we have to get to know our shadows and understand they are part of us...

    I dont understand if this meant understand them so we can ignore them or undersatdn so we can develop them and become more whole. So I choose the second, and am trying to reach Fe and learn to really use it....But it means stepping away from Fi...giving up that intense need for authenticity...the trick is that if the reason for working in the Fe "mindspace" is Fi motivated-like love for another...since my Fi values are so simplistic...kinda childlike, yet very intense...it is perfectly okay to step away from Fi into Fe since I am still being true to Fi values? Yeah it is really weird but gives me a new way to love others and meet their needs-needs I couldnt meet before...but means letting go of Fi just a bit...

    I dunno. (This is like 4 pages of text...)

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