Identical Types Amongst Siblings and/or Offspring?

[elfinchilde]

fingerprints are innate (as in, born with the patterns) i guess. altho, i do think daily wash-and-wear could wipe out some parts. i've seen people who can't do thumbprint access systems 'cos their fingerprints can't be captured clearly enough.

 

[elfinchilde]

innate:

from root word latin: innatus. meaning: to be born with/in.

what is an unconditioned (as opposed to learnt) reflex.

strip away the environment. back to basics, what and who are you?

 

[Domino]

back to basics, what and who are you?

A koala bear.

 

[kelric]

aelan pointed out rightly too: most DNA as far as humans are concerned (elf majored in microbiology, btw) comes from the main nucleus of the cell itself. but in the cytoplasm resides the mitochondrial DNA (which comes from the maternal line), and so, not 100% of the DNA in twins are the same. which accounts for the differences in dental records and thumbprints, even though the main DNA profile (blood type etc) are the same.

I don't think that any (minor) differences in mitochondrial DNA in identical twins are really responsible for differences in fingerprints, etc. After all, we're talking about differences in populations of mitochondria that are coming from the same egg - so even though you might have differing populations of mDNA, they're coming from the same place. Even though mDNA mutates pretty "fast", I think that in general it's usually the same from mother to child (which is why it's so useful for ancestry studies - at least through mothers).

I think that changes are far more likely to be coming from microenvironmental differences during development that just lead what might otherwise be "physically identical" people down slightly different paths of development.

imagine two snowflakes of almost the same composition in the sky. then they fall. along the way, they'd meet different obstacles and winds and all that. that's what shapes them differently, the wings of the crystals will be different, even though the core would (likely) be mostly the same.

I was going to make some lame analogy about a tennis ball on the head of a pin falling different ways depending on tiny environmental changes, but yours is better .

 

[FFF]

What I've read recently about twin studies in general:

Identical twins raised by separate families are a lot like each other. They're a lot more like each other than the families that raised them. In fact, adopted kids have been found to be no more than one tenth like the people who raised them.

Identical twins raised in the same family tend to become more like each other after they leave home and live on their own. This may be due to the fact that people tend to play certain roles in their families.

So, when you consider the MBTI specifically, there can be some problems because it tries to force people into a specific category. If you consider the Big Five and how it just considers you at a certain level, then things will work out a little better.

For example if you have two identical twins that are genetically balanced as far as introversion and extroversion, one of them might be pushed into extroversion by a friendly, accepting environment. The other might be pushed into introversion by a hostile, rejecting environment. So if you rate extraversion (0-100% with 0 being really introverted), one twin might be at 45% and the other might be at 55%. If you use the MBTI to force them into categories, you would end up with an extrovert and an introvert. If you use the Big Five approach, you can obviously see that 45% and 55% isn't really that big of a difference. If such a thing was done with two or more MBTI traits, it can make two identical twins seem really different, when in fact they aren't really that different at all.

 

[Totenkindly]

Identical twins raised by separate families are a lot like each other. They're a lot more like each other than the families that raised them. In fact, adopted kids have been found to be no more than one tenth like the people who raised them.

Identical twins raised in the same family tend to become more like each other after they leave home and live on their own. This may be due to the fact that people tend to play certain roles in their families.

Yes, what I read specifically (aside from MBTI) was that identical twins living apart tend to be more alike than those who live together. Weird, huh?

I have long suspected that some personality tendencies must be in our DNA. Babies are born with a definite temperament, from strong-willed to compliant and everything in between. So while our environment plays a part, I think some of it is genetic.

Oops. Sorry Jennifer. Didn't mean to differ with you. I guess we were both typing at the same time.

Oh, well, you're allowed to differ from me and also, I think some of personality IS genetic.

(We are just not sure which part of the traits are truly genetic and which parts are more susceptible to environment, since even the genetic part of personality is not related to a single gene but numerous genes working together.)

 

[FFF]

I think the environment has an influence on what we're given from the start. Like if three people have to cut an identical metal wire that's about 5 mm thick, and they each have a different set of tools. One of them has a pair of needlenose pliers, another has two hammers, and the third has two screwdrivers. The first person faces the problem with ease, using the cutters on the pliers to simply go right through the wire. The second person seems to be hopeless at first, but with some creativity, realizes that you can place the metal part of one hammer under the wire, and hit the wire with the claw of the other hammer until it breaks apart. The third person is just screwed and can't get it done, so he huddles in the corner and cries like a little girl.

All three people faced the same environment, but approached it with different tools. The end results were: no problem adjusting, adjusting using creativity, and being maladjusted.

If both people start with the same tools, though, like the two hammers, one of them may figure out how to get by with them, and the other may give up and call it hopeless.

 

[INTJMom]

Yes, what I read specifically (aside from MBTI) was that identical twins living apart tend to be more alike than those who live together. Weird, huh?
...

Is that cool, or what?!

 

[Domino]

I'd like to throw in that I think personality is a set point in space and that it acts when acted upon (externally or internally), but does not alter in essential make-up.

My mother said recently that Jaye and I have always behaved like "us", even as babies. Came out with strongly defined personalities. I didn't like to be held as much, was pretty serious and intense, and was always trying to stand up, walk, watch the adults. Jaye was way more social, cuddly, warm, and bright-eyed. In her pictures, she smiled a lot. I thought she was braver and more adventurous than me, even when we were small.

Though environment and other personality types have acted UPON our own, Jaye's been Jaye. I've been me. Nothing mysterious or amorphous about it, at least in my mind.

 

[Domino]

Also, can anyone make heads or tails of that male-female twin set that recently met and married by accident? What were the odds?

 

[INTJMom]

I'd like to throw in that I think personality is a set point in space and that it acts when acted upon (externally or internally), but does not alter in essential make-up.

My mother said recently that Jaye and I have always behaved like "us", even as babies. Came out with strongly defined personalities. I didn't like to be held as much, was pretty serious and intense, and was always trying to stand up, walk, watch the adults. Jaye was way more social, cuddly, warm, and bright-eyed. In her pictures, she smiled a lot. I thought she was braver and more adventurous than me, even when we were small.

Though environment and other personality types have acted UPON our own, Jaye's been Jaye. I've been me. Nothing mysterious or amorphous about it, at least in my mind.

Having had 3 children, and having learned a lot on this subject, it has long been acknowledged that your mother's observations are correct. Babies come out with a certain foundational "personality" already in place.

Also, can anyone make heads or tails of that male-female twin set that recently met and married by accident? What were the odds?

I know. Right?
Obviously, there was some sort of souls attraction or identity thing going on and they mistook it for romantic attraction.
They knew they belonged together!

 

[Domino]

I think I woulda had a "Crying Game"-esque can't get clean moment. lol

 

[kelric]

Also, can anyone make heads or tails of that male-female twin set that recently met and married by accident? What were the odds?

OMG. I heard about that on the radio a couple of weeks ago. Quite creepy, but really, how would they know? I'm sure that it was dramatized a bit for publication, but the radio announcer made a big deal of them saying "we had so much in common".

I just had this awful conversation in mind that started with "how old are you? - oh, me too!", and went through "when is your birthday? - oh, me too, what a coincidence!", and ending up at "where did you live when you were a kid? - I was adopted in AAA from hospital BBB - oh, me to... "

You have to feel bad for them, although I heard that they're still friends. Definitely eerie though.

 

[wildcat]

why do you assume the fourth is a 'her'?

can i call wildcat meowie? love the way his mind works.

but i digress. just personally as an identical twin (how many pairs of twins are there here? ):

it's a nature vs nurture argument. To put everything down to DNA and say that just because twins share the same genome, they'd be exactly the same, is too absolute perhaps?

because who we are is ultimately shaped by the environment. and even though the macro environment may be the same (eg, same socio-cultural background, same family and place of school/growing up etc), the daily micro-environment will be different (the individualised experiences one has).

that would shape personality, wouldn't it?

aelan pointed out rightly too: most DNA as far as humans are concerned (elf majored in microbiology, btw) comes from the main nucleus of the cell itself. but in the cytoplasm resides the mitochondrial DNA (which comes from the maternal line), and so, not 100% of the DNA in twins are the same. which accounts for the differences in dental records and thumbprints, even though the main DNA profile (blood type etc) are the same.

i'm visual. so to simplify things:

imagine two snowflakes of almost the same composition in the sky. then they fall. along the way, they'd meet different obstacles and winds and all that. that's what shapes them differently, the wings of the crystals will be different, even though the core would (likely) be mostly the same.

i hope i managed some clarity in the above rambling.

I pondered and pondered. The chromosomes are tricky.

5X + 2X + Y = her.
5X + 1X + 2Y = him.

6 seats have already been occupied in our elfie meowie family. Let the sole Y prevail!

Snowflakes are beautiful. Yes, they are not exactly the same. Also the temperature makes a remarkable change, especially how they reflect light.
On frosty cloudless moonshine nights, when the wolves are howling, they appear very white.

 

[elfinchilde]

I pondered and pondered. The chromosomes are tricky.

5X + 2X + Y = her.
5X + 1X + 2Y = him.

6 seats have already been occupied in our elfie meowie family. Let the sole Y prevail!

Snowflakes are beautiful. Yes, they are not exactly the same. Also the temperature makes a remarkable change, especially how they reflect light.
On frosty cloudless moonshine nights, when the wolves are howling, they appear very white.

lol. theoretically, seven seats have been occupied, and it's a 50% chance of the last one. But ok, since you're my meowie, i'll let the sole Y prevail.

oh yea. frost on the window pane, fragility and beauty and ephemerality all at once. transience. "sic vita" --latin: such is life.

"and this, too, shall pass"

all the ancient wisdom of the ages. they come through the maternal line, ya know?

only Xs are preserved. Some part of genetic memory. Ever saw Dali's The Persistence of Memory? (otherwise known as the melting clocks picture).

explication of symbol and significance:

that thing in the foreground, it's an unborn foetus.

with melting clocks all around: time is not of essence in memory, since memory loops in the space of time. you can be 8 again, or you can be 80, in memory, time is not a straight line. it melts.

a jade green milky sea: the unconsciousness.

a foetus: from the time before birth.

so persistence of memory: what do you remember, what do you know, from your time in the womb, from before your time in the womb?

think about it.

 

[Nocapszy]

Elfinchilde is a right handed INTP, and I am a left handed INTP.
We are trins.

You're twins with Elf? Does Elf have aspergers as well? I'm curious why I can't understand you some of the time but (s?)he does instantly.

Edit:

I pondered and pondered. The chromosomes are tricky.

5X + 2X + Y = her.
5X + 1X + 2Y = him.

6 seats have already been occupied in our elfie meowie family. Let the sole Y prevail!

Snowflakes are beautiful. Yes, they are not exactly the same. Also the temperature makes a remarkable change, especially how they reflect light.
On frosty cloudless moonshine nights, when the wolves are howling, they appear very white.

Ah. You are family, and Elf is a she.

Still, does she have asp.?

 

[elfinchilde]

nocapszy, i'm twins with aelan. no blood relation with wildcat, but he's kinda my meowie now.

i *get* him (not perfectly all the time of course) cos he's mathematical, but i'm visual. so really, if you get wildcat's main thesis, the rest are just details. ie, once you get the big picture, you can fit the rest in words, actions, numbers, pictures, sounds, doesn't quite matter. it's just going by a different path but parallel process.

the difficulty is in first 'locking into' his mind. (hope meowie doesn't mind this explication of him...)

i don't think i have aspergers, altho sometimes i do suspect i have some high functioning autism. alternatively, it's just that i choose to deny reality. anything is possible.

 

[elfinchilde]

Still, does she have asp.?

i don't think i have aspergers, altho sometimes i do suspect i have some high functioning autism. alternatively, it's just that i choose to deny reality. anything is possible.

reality, after all, is a Rorsarch ink blot. --Alan Watts.

What do you choose to believe, nocapszy?

 

[white]

Nocap,

No to aspie, otherwise, I'd have it too, same with autism. What you're seeing is Ne on the loose, rather.

Ti-Ne is a coded language of its own. It permits in whom it pleases, it can choose to simplify for others if it wants.

Why they read each other well, is simply because they share common Ti reference points from which the Ne builds its tree on. Namely art, history, literature, philosophy, psychology, sociology, from classical to modern.

And welcome to the family, wildcat. The 7th is the number of fire.

 

[elfinchilde]

Nocap,

No to aspie, otherwise, I'd have it too, same with autism. What you're seeing is Ne on the loose, rather.

Ti-Ne is a coded language of its own. It permits in whom it pleases, it can choose to simplify for others if it wants.

Why they read each other well, is simply because they share common Ti reference points from which the Ne builds its tree on. Namely art, history, literature, philosophy, psychology, sociology, from classical to modern.

And welcome to the family, wildcat. The 7th is the number of fire.

the elf is an interpreter, mainly. she translates.

you know, like how people always separate their five senses? but really, it's all the same.

an A note on the piano is the same as the taste of lemon butter, is the same as the colour of pale yellow.

permutations of the same theme. that's all. synesthesia.

Ne on the loose, if you'd prefer it that way. It's a way of living with no restrictions. but beneath chaos is order. it's just whether you can get it, or not. (hmm...Js may not quite get it tho... )