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  1. #61
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    fingerprints are innate (as in, born with the patterns) i guess. altho, i do think daily wash-and-wear could wipe out some parts. i've seen people who can't do thumbprint access systems 'cos their fingerprints can't be captured clearly enough.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  2. #62
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    innate:

    from root word latin: innatus. meaning: to be born with/in.

    what is an unconditioned (as opposed to learnt) reflex.

    strip away the environment. back to basics, what and who are you?
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  3. #63
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    back to basics, what and who are you?
    A koala bear.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  4. #64
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    aelan pointed out rightly too: most DNA as far as humans are concerned (elf majored in microbiology, btw) comes from the main nucleus of the cell itself. but in the cytoplasm resides the mitochondrial DNA (which comes from the maternal line), and so, not 100% of the DNA in twins are the same. which accounts for the differences in dental records and thumbprints, even though the main DNA profile (blood type etc) are the same.
    I don't think that any (minor) differences in mitochondrial DNA in identical twins are really responsible for differences in fingerprints, etc. After all, we're talking about differences in populations of mitochondria that are coming from the same egg - so even though you might have differing populations of mDNA, they're coming from the same place. Even though mDNA mutates pretty "fast", I think that in general it's usually the same from mother to child (which is why it's so useful for ancestry studies - at least through mothers).

    I think that changes are far more likely to be coming from microenvironmental differences during development that just lead what might otherwise be "physically identical" people down slightly different paths of development.

    Quote Originally Posted by elfinchilde View Post
    imagine two snowflakes of almost the same composition in the sky. then they fall. along the way, they'd meet different obstacles and winds and all that. that's what shapes them differently, the wings of the crystals will be different, even though the core would (likely) be mostly the same.
    I was going to make some lame analogy about a tennis ball on the head of a pin falling different ways depending on tiny environmental changes, but yours is better .

  5. #65
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    What I've read recently about twin studies in general:

    Identical twins raised by separate families are a lot like each other. They're a lot more like each other than the families that raised them. In fact, adopted kids have been found to be no more than one tenth like the people who raised them.

    Identical twins raised in the same family tend to become more like each other after they leave home and live on their own. This may be due to the fact that people tend to play certain roles in their families.

    So, when you consider the MBTI specifically, there can be some problems because it tries to force people into a specific category. If you consider the Big Five and how it just considers you at a certain level, then things will work out a little better.

    For example if you have two identical twins that are genetically balanced as far as introversion and extroversion, one of them might be pushed into extroversion by a friendly, accepting environment. The other might be pushed into introversion by a hostile, rejecting environment. So if you rate extraversion (0-100% with 0 being really introverted), one twin might be at 45% and the other might be at 55%. If you use the MBTI to force them into categories, you would end up with an extrovert and an introvert. If you use the Big Five approach, you can obviously see that 45% and 55% isn't really that big of a difference. If such a thing was done with two or more MBTI traits, it can make two identical twins seem really different, when in fact they aren't really that different at all.

  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImNotTooPopular View Post
    Identical twins raised by separate families are a lot like each other. They're a lot more like each other than the families that raised them. In fact, adopted kids have been found to be no more than one tenth like the people who raised them.

    Identical twins raised in the same family tend to become more like each other after they leave home and live on their own. This may be due to the fact that people tend to play certain roles in their families.
    Yes, what I read specifically (aside from MBTI) was that identical twins living apart tend to be more alike than those who live together. Weird, huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I have long suspected that some personality tendencies must be in our DNA. Babies are born with a definite temperament, from strong-willed to compliant and everything in between. So while our environment plays a part, I think some of it is genetic.

    Oops. Sorry Jennifer. Didn't mean to differ with you. I guess we were both typing at the same time.
    Oh, well, you're allowed to differ from me and also, I think some of personality IS genetic.

    (We are just not sure which part of the traits are truly genetic and which parts are more susceptible to environment, since even the genetic part of personality is not related to a single gene but numerous genes working together.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    Fight For Freedom FFF's Avatar
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    I think the environment has an influence on what we're given from the start. Like if three people have to cut an identical metal wire that's about 5 mm thick, and they each have a different set of tools. One of them has a pair of needlenose pliers, another has two hammers, and the third has two screwdrivers. The first person faces the problem with ease, using the cutters on the pliers to simply go right through the wire. The second person seems to be hopeless at first, but with some creativity, realizes that you can place the metal part of one hammer under the wire, and hit the wire with the claw of the other hammer until it breaks apart. The third person is just screwed and can't get it done, so he huddles in the corner and cries like a little girl.

    All three people faced the same environment, but approached it with different tools. The end results were: no problem adjusting, adjusting using creativity, and being maladjusted.

    If both people start with the same tools, though, like the two hammers, one of them may figure out how to get by with them, and the other may give up and call it hopeless.

  8. #68
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, what I read specifically (aside from MBTI) was that identical twins living apart tend to be more alike than those who live together. Weird, huh?
    ...
    Is that cool, or what?!

  9. #69
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I'd like to throw in that I think personality is a set point in space and that it acts when acted upon (externally or internally), but does not alter in essential make-up.

    My mother said recently that Jaye and I have always behaved like "us", even as babies. Came out with strongly defined personalities. I didn't like to be held as much, was pretty serious and intense, and was always trying to stand up, walk, watch the adults. Jaye was way more social, cuddly, warm, and bright-eyed. In her pictures, she smiled a lot. I thought she was braver and more adventurous than me, even when we were small.

    Though environment and other personality types have acted UPON our own, Jaye's been Jaye. I've been me. Nothing mysterious or amorphous about it, at least in my mind.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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  10. #70
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Also, can anyone make heads or tails of that male-female twin set that recently met and married by accident? What were the odds?
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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