Asperger's Syndrome and MBTI type.

[skylights]

The way it was explained to me, if one can't rely on the social cues that others use to know how to respond to people -- like because there's too much information coming in to sort it out -- then you have no choice but to use logic (T) and make inferences (N) on that basis. This will affect type test results.
But then what type do we say that they are? An S who's mistyped, or is AS simply a factor in them being NT?

I know an ISFJ well IRL who has Asperger's... I guess it's odd to think about how someone who doesn't pick up on social cues could use Fe, but if you look at it through the lens of Fe as a thinking process that focuses on "relationships between people", and understanding that people with Aspergers may struggle to empathize but can certainly sympathize, then I think you can kinda see how someone with Aspergers could still be people-focused and relationship-focused despite not seeing the fuzzy cues. I think the key there is also Ti - the ISFJ I know is certainly Ti-heavy, and it's very clearly Ti, not Te. But autism also is often characterized by hyperfocus, memory for concrete detail, sensitivity to sensory input, a tendency to be overly literal, and preference for repetition/familiarity, all of which can easily tie into Si-type processing.

I have noticed, however, despite this ISFJ's struggle to not be literal and concrete, he does seem to perform well at NT-oriented (abstract logical) tasks and seems to converse more easily and fluidly with NTs.

 

[Eric B]

Just curious; how do you know he's ISFJ?
If it's strong Si, then for an INTP with AS, this will not only be strong as it is ("tertiary temptation"), but will look even stronger because of that "concrete" focus.

Continuing to reflect on this stuff, I also think part of the problem is thinking of the functions as things we "use". Fe isn't really "picking up social cues". That's a single trait, that may stem from a functional perspective, but is not exclusive to one. (It can come with Se or even Si as well).
So what you said is correct; it's a focus on "relationships between people".
And then "not picking up social cues" is also likely a trait, that occurs in AS, but is not necessarily a defining factor. It just happens that most Aspies are NT's, so their lack of certain S and F skills becomes magnified. AS is essentially a sensory overload that will play out that way for NT's (like emotions are a form of sensation, so as Aspies often report, they feel overwhelmed by them; and thus T will feel like a much "safer" realm for them). I guess SF Aspies might be able to handle the emotions better, but have other problems, and probably find themselves in a bind with S activities; having trouble processing the data (like physical stuff), but nevertheless be more willing to keep trying; or at least find some other way to handle S data.

 

[Ivy]

I was diagnosed with aspergers when I was 9. One of two things happened 1. I outgrew it, or 2. It was wrong. My therapist feels that I have several aspects of it, and if I do have it, it's extremely well managed. The similarities are with how I process emotions and how I feel them (it's atypical from most). When I was a kid I was a social idiot in many ways. I did not see or get many social cues or rules.

I'd be curious to hear how you process and feel emotions.

 

[á´…eparted]

Not getting social cues could be related to having Fi-tert or inferior as a kid...i.e. Fe being one of your weakest (7th or 8th) function... your conscious self at that time may be literally blind to it or unable to capture and process Fe layer...

That may mean you were an xxTJ as a kid then developed an xxTP outer self (i.e. persona) to be able to interact with the world...

Your curent hopes and desires may shed more light on that...

No I was actually really Fe as a child. Just because I was socially daft with things, didn't mean that I was robotic or had bad intentions. I'll highlight what I mean.

When I was 8, my cousin and I were jumping on the trampoline while fireworks were going off in the backyard for the fourth of July. All I had on was a massively oversized football jersey, and as it turned out, I failed to put underwear on underneath. Eventually, it stopped and everyone started to go inside (a lot of my family was there with us). We were all being loud and having fun and at the end of it everyone was then quiet, and I was dissapointed by that. I want everyone to still have fun and be laughing, and I couldn't seem to get it going, so I thought of something funny that I could do. So, I run in front of everyone and shout "may I have your attention please!" and I lift up my jersey, and flash everyone buck naked. Everyone laughed and was like "oh god", and my mother ran forward, scooped me up, and took me inside to scold me. She said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.

Thats kind of what I mean by socially dumb. I was a very social person, and quite friendly, I just made mistakes with it when I didn't understand the rules of engagement.

I'd be curious to hear how you process and feel emotions.

It's a bit hard to describe, but I'll try. The biggest thing that happens, is how persistent they can linger. Say for example, someone were to yell at me for something I did wrong. Like, suddenly out of the blue. I didn't see it coming. You know that initial "shock" feeling you get? That will keep firing, and firing, and firing over and over again. I have to strain to not bend over and hyperventilate from that going off excessively. It's almost like it's on a tape loop and I can't get out of it. It can last for a few seconds or minutes. The aftermath of it too will persist. Sometimes, I'll be unable to get past that physical sensation of the emotion. I'm really sensitive to failure and shame, and that's what triggers it most often.

If I fail something, that initial gut viceral feeling will hit me, and for most people it will fade (and sometimes it will fade "normally" for me too these excessive "firings" don't always happen). However, sometimes that physical feeling of the emotions will persist for hours with little fading. What makes it confusing, and sometimes worse than the initial start of it. I'll mentally work it out, and totally get it. I won't have any issues over it anymore. Yet, I'll still have that gut physical feeling of the emotion. I have no mental aspect of it anymore, but I still feel it. It's really confusing. I'll think to myself "I'm over it, why do I still feel this?! AHHH." and it can create its own stress from that alone. Because I no longer have any mental aspect of it, I can't get rid of the feeling anymore by using mental things. In effect, it will get "stuck". At worst this can last for days. It's not usually a strong physical sensation like initial shocks are, but it can keep going and going causing stress that I have no cognitive way to stop. Eventually it will go away on its own.

In essence, my emotions will over respond sometimes, or they will separate from the mental aspect of it and become nothing more than the bodily reaction to an emotion, which is just plain confusing and stressful.

On the flip side, this can happen with happy things too. I love it when that happens!

 

[yeghor]

No I was actually really Fe as a child. Just because I was socially daft with things, didn't mean that I was robotic or had bad intentions. I'll highlight what I mean.

When I was 8, my cousin and I were jumping on the trampoline while fireworks were going off in the backyard for the fourth of July. All I had on was a massively oversized football jersey, and as it turned out, I failed to put underwear on underneath. Eventually, it stopped and everyone started to go inside (a lot of my family was there with us). We were all being loud and having fun and at the end of it everyone was then quiet, and I was dissapointed by that. I want everyone to still have fun and be laughing, and I couldn't seem to get it going, so I thought of something funny that I could do. So, I run in front of everyone and shout "may I have your attention please!" and I lift up my jersey, and flash everyone buck naked. Everyone laughed and was like "oh god", and my mother ran forward, scooped me up, and took me inside to scold me. She said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.

Thats kind of what I mean by socially dumb. I was a very social person, and quite friendly, I just made mistakes with it when I didn't understand the rules of engagement.

Being loud and having fun thing somehow suggests to me that you were an E as a kid... If you had had Fe (sensitivity to social rules, norms, feedback and gestures) as a kid, you would have been susceptible to negative Fe feedback and would have felt ashamed afterwards... So you must have been an E with no Fe, i.e. with Fi...ESFP, ENFP, ESTJ, ENTJ...as a kid...

In your earlier video of yourself, you said nowadays you could switch of caring for anyone easily as if turning on and off a switch...This suggests your adult persona is either a Fe-tert or a Fe-inf... xxTP... which means your kid persona was a xxTJ... So your adult persona should be IxTP...

ISTPs have Se-aux impulsiveness... you are quite calm in your video though... are you impulsive in RL...? Do you flare up and become physical with people easily?

Does IxTP fit with your socionics typing?

It's a bit hard to describe, but I'll try. The biggest thing that happens, is how persistent they can linger. Say for example, someone were to yell at me for something I did wrong. Like, suddenly out of the blue. I didn't see it coming. You know that initial "shock" feeling you get? That will keep firing, and firing, and firing over and over again. I have to strain to not bend over and hyperventilate from that going off excessively. It's almost like it's on a tape loop and I can't get out of it. It can last for a few seconds or minutes. The aftermath of it too will persist. Sometimes, I'll be unable to get past that physical sensation of the emotion. I'm really sensitive to failure and shame, and that's what triggers it most often.

Yelling is Te... Te triggering anxiety in you must mean that your adult external self (persona) must be a Te-inferior... but this doesn't fit IxTP typing... IxTPs have Fe-inferior... They should theoretically be irritated by overt displays of Fe... not Te... Overt displays of Fe would be people telling you to obey social norms and criticizing you when you don't... like not caring to hold doors for people behind you, disregard or obliviousness for other people's comfort or distress, not giving up seats to the elderly in public transport etc...

 

[á´…eparted]

Being loud and having fun thing somehow suggests to me that you were an E as a kid... If you had had Fe (sensitivity to social rules, norms, feedback and gestures) as a kid, you would have been susceptible to negative Fe feedback and would have felt ashamed afterwards... So you must have been an E with no Fe, i.e. with Fi...ESFP, ENFP, ESTJ, ENTJ...as a kid...

In your earlier video of yourself, you said nowadays you could switch of caring for anyone easily as if turning on and off a switch...This suggests your adult persona is either a Fe-tert or a Fe-inf... xxTP... which means your kid persona was a xxTJ... So your adult persona should be IxTP...

ISTPs have Se-aux impulsiveness... you are quite calm in your video though... are you impulsive in RL...? Do you flare up and become physical with people easily?

Does IxTP fit with your socionics typing?



Yelling is Te... Te triggering anxiety in you must mean that your adult external self (persona) must be a Te-inferior... but this doesn't fit IxTP typing... IxTPs have Fe-inferior... They should theoretically be irritated by overt displays of Fe... not Te... Overt displays of Fe would be people telling you to obey social norms and criticizing you when you don't... like not caring to hold doors for people behind you, disregard or obliviousness for other people's comfort or distress, not giving up seats to the elderly in public transport etc...

HAHAHA! The idea that I am a P type is completely laughable. Nope, it's not even remotely possible.

Much of what you're explaining is stereotypes. I was, and am sensitive to social feedback. I DID feel bad after that happened. Just because I didn't understand it doesn't mean that I didn't feel guilt from it. I felt shitty that I made a mistake that I had no idea was one. Those kinds of things kill me.

Yeah I can turn things on and off, but not everything. It has to be justifyable and I need to be sure it's rational for me to do so. If it's not, I can't do it.

I am definitely a Je dominant.

 

[yeghor]

HAHAHA! The idea that I am a P type is completely laughable. Nope, it's not even remotely possible.

Much of what you're explaining is stereotypes. I was, and am sensitive to social feedback. I DID feel bad after that happened. Just because I didn't understand it doesn't mean that I didn't feel guilt from it. I felt shitty that I made a mistake that I had no idea was one. Those kinds of things kill me.

Sorry but what you write above is not evident in what you had written before below...?

he said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.

Yeah I can turn things on and off, but not everything. It has to be justifyable and I need to be sure it's rational for me to do so. If it's not, I can't do it.

I am definitely a Je dominant.

^This also is not mentioned in the video... Your descriptions of yourself feel inconclusive to me..

A Je dominant's self worth is predominantly tied to external feedback on how he\she stands as a person in the society wrt others... A Fe-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the social framework (like how a good person he\she is) whereas a Te-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the utilitarian framework...i.e. that he's a high achiever\doer...

There's something I wonder, do Fe and Te frameworks have to be on a vertical plane, i.e. has there to be a vertical hierarchy between people in terms of their perceived Fe or Te value...? Do Fe and Te-dom feel compelled to measuring themselves (their worth\status) against others?

My understanding of Fe (aux) strives and desires for a framework that is organized more on a lateral\parallel plane...where people could exist more or less with same Fe value...

Is this the same for Te (aux)...?

 

[á´…eparted]

Sorry but what you write above is not evident in what you had written before below...?

^This also is not mentioned in the video... Your descriptions of yourself feel inconclusive to me..

A Je dominant's self worth is predominantly tied to external feedback on how he\she stands as a person in the society wrt others... A Fe-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the social framework (like how a good person he\she is) whereas a Te-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the utilitarian framework...i.e. that he's a high achiever\doer...

There's something I wonder, do Fe and Te frameworks have to be on a vertical plane, i.e. has there to be a vertical hierarchy between people in terms of their perceived Fe or Te value...? Do Fe and Te-dom feel compelled to measuring themselves (their worth\status) against others?

My understanding of Fe (aux) strives and desires for a framework that is organized more on a lateral\parallel plane...where people could exist more or less with same Fe value...

Is this the same for Te (aux)...?

You say

Your descriptions of yourself feel inconclusive to me..

Ok, but that doesn't mean you're right. There isn't any way possible for me to not be a J. Je dominant or secondary, yeah there might be some arguments there between the two, but I strongly lean to Je dom. But me being a P; nope, that's wrong.

My self worth IS predominately tied to external feedback. It's actually a huge part of me and a big stress point a lot of the time. That said, you're using stereotypes (again) to try and bolster the argument, and that's not how it all is. For the record though, I do need to feel like I am well regarded by others, useful, competent, regarded, and efficient. If I don't my self-worth and self-opinion goes down the tube. But I am not like that in every single situation. No Je dom would be.

You really need to avoid going off function sterotypes, it can lead you astray fast.

 

[yeghor]

Ok, but that doesn't mean you're right. There isn't any way possible for me to not be a J. Je dominant or secondary, yeah there might be some arguments there between the two, but I strongly lean to Je dom. But me being a P; nope, that's wrong.

My self worth IS predominately tied to external feedback. It's actually a huge part of me and a big stress point a lot of the time. That said, you're using stereotypes (again) to try and bolster the argument, and that's not how it all is. For the record though, I do need to feel like I am well regarded by others, useful, competent, regarded, and efficient. If I don't my self-worth and self-opinion goes down the tube. But I am not like that in every single situation. No Je dom would be.

You really need to avoid going off function sterotypes, it can lead you astray fast.

Agreed...but I am using my own understanding of the functions...not necessarily stereotypes...

The bolded is not Fe... but more like Te... Fe would be more like to be seen as "revered, helpful, honest, caring" etc...more moralistic values, societal values...

 

[á´…eparted]

Agreed...but I am using my own understanding of the functions...not necessarily stereotypes...

The bolded is not Fe... but more like Te... Fe would be more like to be seen as "revered, helpful, honest, caring" etc...more moralistic values, societal values...

I understand that. I know I appear Te, but I am not a Te dominant (I WISH I was). It wouldn't be the first time I was called a T user and not an F user. Curiously, it seems like every time that this happens it's an F user claiming it.

You're understanding of the function is not clear enough to declare this about me.

 

[yeghor]

I understand that. I know I appear Te, but I am not a Te dominant (I WISH I was). It wouldn't be the first time I was called a T user and not an F user. Curiously, it seems like every time that this happens it's an F user claiming it.

You're understanding of the function is not clear enough to declare this about me.

As a Fe-aux? I guess I have at least some understanding of it... but I can see how I may be coming across as irritating and persistent...so I don't have anything more to say on it... just give it a thought please...

 

[á´…eparted]

As a Fe-aux? I guess I have at least some understanding of it... but I can see how I may be coming across as irritating and persistent...so I don't have anything more to say on it... just give it a thought please...

I have, you mentioned it a while ago. I determined that it's not right, which is what I am trying to tell you. Maybe in the future something will happen with me that will make me have to question my self perception, but as of now that has not happened.

 

[skylights]

Just curious; how do you know he's ISFJ?

Him saying so. And it fits very well. He's very J, very SJ. Very strong contrast to NP.

If it's strong Si, then for an INTP with AS, this will not only be strong as it is ("tertiary temptation"), but will look even stronger because of that "concrete" focus.

Continuing to reflect on this stuff, I also think part of the problem is thinking of the functions as things we "use". Fe isn't really "picking up social cues". That's a single trait, that may stem from a functional perspective, but is not exclusive to one. (It can come with Se or even Si as well).
So what you said is correct; it's a focus on "relationships between people".
And then "not picking up social cues" is also likely a trait, that occurs in AS, but is not necessarily a defining factor. It just happens that most Aspies are NT's, so their lack of certain S and F skills becomes magnified. AS is essentially a sensory overload that will play out that way for NT's (like emotions are a form of sensation, so as Aspies often report, they feel overwhelmed by them; and thus T will feel like a much "safer" realm for them). I guess SF Aspies might be able to handle the emotions better, but have other problems, and probably find themselves in a bind with S activities; having trouble processing the data (like physical stuff), but nevertheless be more willing to keep trying; or at least find some other way to handle S data.

Yeah, exactly. Though he hates emotions, they overwhelm him when they're strong. But he's good with relationships... he's good at relating with people, working with people, encouraging people, being aware of people behavior, understanding internal drive. As far as I can tell with him Se data can easily become overwhelming since he can't really control or mediate it, whereas Si data is a lot easier because he can control how he takes it in and uses it, and since it's more "storage"-y in nature it doesn't really present the danger of "taking over" his present experience like Ne or Se can.

I wish I could get him interested in the forum so he could talk about this himself, I feel like my explanations are mediocre at best!

 

[yeghor]

Him saying so. And it fits very well. He's very J, very SJ. Very strong contrast to NP.

Yeah, exactly. Though he hates emotions, they overwhelm him when they're strong. But he's good with relationships... he's good at relating with people, working with people, encouraging people, being aware of people behavior, understanding internal drive. As far as I can tell with him Se data can easily become overwhelming since he can't really control or mediate it, whereas Si data is a lot easier because he can control how he takes it in and uses it, and since it's more "storage"-y in nature it doesn't really present the danger of "taking over" his present experience like Ne or Se can.

I wish I could get him interested in the forum so he could talk about this himself, I feel like my explanations are mediocre at best!

Being overwhelmed with Se data may point to Se-inferior...INxJ...

 

[skylights]

Being overwhelmed with Se data may point to Se-inferior...INxJ...

True, though he is diagnosed with sensory processing disorder, so I'm more inclined to relate it to that and believe his self-typing.

Some people with sensory processing disorder are oversensitive to things in their environment. Common sounds may be painful or overwhelming. The light touch of a shirt may chafe the skin [...] In some children, for example, the sound of a leaf blower outside the window may cause them to vomit or dive under the table. They may scream when touched. They may recoil from the textures of certain foods.

 

[Werebudgie]

True, though he is diagnosed with sensory processing disorder, so I'm more inclined to relate it to that and believe his self-typing.

Yeah, MBTI type/cognitive processes do not explain everything, - always useful to remember this IMO.

(and hmm, I'd never heard of sensory processing disorder, I'm wondering if it might explain some things about my partner's grandma .... off to read up on it)

 

[Zarathustra]

When I was 8, my cousin and I were jumping on the trampoline while fireworks were going off in the backyard for the fourth of July. All I had on was a massively oversized football jersey, and as it turned out, I failed to put underwear on underneath. Eventually, it stopped and everyone started to go inside (a lot of my family was there with us). We were all being loud and having fun and at the end of it everyone was then quiet, and I was dissapointed by that. I want everyone to still have fun and be laughing, and I couldn't seem to get it going, so I thought of something funny that I could do. So, I run in front of everyone and shout "may I have your attention please!" and I lift up my jersey, and flash everyone buck naked. Everyone laughed and was like "oh god", and my mother ran forward, scooped me up, and took me inside to scold me. She said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.

That's fucking hilarious.

You weren't in the wrong.

You were a fucking 8 yr old.

Maybe a little old to be doing that.

But it sounds like everyone thought it was funny.

There's nothing inherently wrong about what you did.

 

[Werebudgie]

No I was actually really Fe as a child. Just because I was socially daft with things, didn't mean that I was robotic or had bad intentions. I'll highlight what I mean.

When I was 8, my cousin and I were jumping on the trampoline while fireworks were going off in the backyard for the fourth of July. All I had on was a massively oversized football jersey, and as it turned out, I failed to put underwear on underneath. Eventually, it stopped and everyone started to go inside (a lot of my family was there with us). We were all being loud and having fun and at the end of it everyone was then quiet, and I was dissapointed by that. I want everyone to still have fun and be laughing, and I couldn't seem to get it going, so I thought of something funny that I could do. So, I run in front of everyone and shout "may I have your attention please!" and I lift up my jersey, and flash everyone buck naked. Everyone laughed and was like "oh god", and my mother ran forward, scooped me up, and took me inside to scold me. She said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.

Thats kind of what I mean by socially dumb. I was a very social person, and quite friendly, I just made mistakes with it when I didn't understand the rules of engagement.

But it sounds like everyone thought it was funny.

Hard, Zarathustra's comment gets at something that came to my mind when reading your description. It seems to me that what you did was quite Fe-heavy in that you correctly "read" what would get the people laughing - you were were accurate in your assessment of what "something funny" would be in that group. This seems like an orientation to the local collective tone/energy/vibe/values, which as I understand it is very Fe. The difficulty you faced was conflicting value sets - one in which what you did was funny in the local collective context, and one in which what you did was seen as inappropriate. You were correct in your reading of the local environment, but understandably as a child hadn't figured out the other (larger/broader maybe) set of values your mother brought in. Does that seem at all accurate to you?

 

[TaylorS]

Holy thread necromancy batman!

 

[prplchknz]

my best friend is ESFP and has asperger's but the thing is the average person wouldn't be able to tell, because he is so ESFP, but he is very unaware. He thinks he has a job as a bus boy, and it's a busy time of year and they keep saying they don't need him but will call him in a month which everyone else realizes he probably doesn't have the job anymore. He can look at patterns memorize them in 30 seconds and never have to look at them again. We were watching cadfael and there were suppose to be 94 bodies, he counted 95 in ten seconds. He doesn't get the cue that he should go home, you have to straight up say, it's time to go home. Being like I'm going to bed, or something similar he'll sit there and not leave even after everyone else has gone to bed. but he is very image conscious very idealistic notices things no one else does. he loves design, he knits lace. ect. He is very social and will talk to anyone, infact sometimes you can't get him to shut up. He'll overshare and it's stuff that he probably shouldn't be sharing, like self incriminating stuff. So he has aspie traits along with ESFP traits, it interested to watch him. But he is the most awesome person I have ever met. He'll ask me over the phone which pants he should wear, and it's like I dunno I can't see them. He'll change his outfit like 5 times in a row, will wear extremely uncomfortable shoes because the comfortable ones don't go with is outfit. He'll show up unexpectly and no matter how many times you tell him to call first, he doesn't get it.

can not stand being by himself