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  1. #201
    Junior Member Himeko009's Avatar
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    Researcher, I understand best the Ni/Se and Ne/Si differences now, and I conclude I'm a INTP, but sometimes I think I have good shadow Ni use, but poor Se... lol
    INTP (LII - Ne, Harmonizing subtype) ~ 5w4 - 9w1 - 4w5 (sp/sx/so)

    "My thought is me: that is why I cannot stop thinking. I exist because I think I cannot keep from thinking" ~ Jean-Paul Sartre

  2. #202
    Senior Member robowolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    You simply haven't heard of the shadow effect if you say something like that. (It's my duty to tell you, because it improves the world)

    ....Would you cry hard if I told you that your buddies at function 3&4 were merely shadows that don't actually exist?

    THE PROFOUND THING IS:
    It is physically impossible to do a Ti act without AT THE SAME TIME also do an Fe act. (This is deep philosophical Tao stuff!)
    This is actually very interesting and no, I'd never heard of the shadow effect before (well, yes, but it wasn't the same one: according to wikipedia the shadow functions are the 5th-8th),

    BUT

    When I said that they're still human what I meant was that they must have an F function along with S, N and T functions to function properly. They work together like the gears in a clock. An individual that doesn't have an S function is completely disconnected from reality and their surroundings, an individual without a T function is incapable of thinking rationally or making logical decisions/evaluations, etc.. Ti users don't only show Fe, they use it, certainly not as much and as well as Ti, but they still use it.

    It's not much about what functions exist in your stack, but what functions you use/prefer to use and, consequently, develop, and you *need* an N, an S, a T and an F.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by robowolf View Post
    This is actually very interesting and no, I'd never heard of the shadow effect before (well, yes, but it wasn't the same one: according to wikipedia the shadow functions are the 5th-8th),

    BUT

    When I said that they're still human what I meant was that they must have an F function along with S, N and T functions to function properly. They work together like the gears in a clock. An individual that doesn't have an S function is completely disconnected from reality and their surroundings, an individual without a T function is incapable of thinking rationally or making logical decisions/evaluations, etc.. Ti users don't only show Fe, they use it, certainly not as much and as well as Ti, but they still use it.

    It's not much about what functions exist in your stack, but what functions you use/prefer to use and, consequently, develop, and you *need* an N, an S, a T and an F.
    Thanks for the respect It is interesting, and very profound, thats why I cant shut up about it...

    BUT...

    Why do you say every human MUST have all functions? You think just having 1 or 2 functions (=being close to 1 or 2 functions, and far from the rest) is politically incorrect or something? Afraid the forum gods will punish you for it?

    Or afraid you are going to crush the modern narcissistic "I am god with all functions" illusion? Does that illusion make you feel better, is that why you want to keep it up?

    Just to shock you a bit more: The 8 functions are not 8 machines, or 8 weapons of which the more you have the better.
    The 8 functions are just 8 theoretical points on the spectrum of all human personalities.
    And actually some of these functions cancel each other out by definition of the way Jung designed this model. (so you can at max have 4, which cancel out the other 4).

    Ti-Ne just means you are somewhere in the middle of Ti & Ne, but a bit closer to Ti, thats why you say it first.

    You could actually be exactly at Ti. It doesnt happen often, but you would be alive and well. And very human. (Just weirdly extreme in Ti)


    Someone who is in the middle position of north-pole-function and London-function and New-York-function, thus having 3 functions, is just standing somewhere (or swimming ). Just like somebody who is only exactly on the north-pole-function, even though this last guy has only 1 function, he can stil stand (or swim) there just like the other guy. (Although it's probably fucking cold overthere).

    We can actually change the theoretical postitions of north pole, London, New York.... They are just chosen.

    The nice part about Jung's function's though, is that they are uniformly spread over the spectrum. (Not just at weird locations with weird random distances like cities).
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  4. #204
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    It has nothing to do with being human or not. Even a robot cannot be only Ti without showing Fe! (or Ne without showing Si)

    You simply haven't heard of the shadow effect if you say something like that. (It's my duty to tell you, because it improves the world)

    ....Would you cry hard if I told you that your buddies at function 3&4 were merely shadows that don't actually exist?

    THE PROFOUND THING IS:
    It is physically impossible to do a Ti act without AT THE SAME TIME also do an Fe act. (This is deep philosophical Tao stuff!)
    Physically, mentally. What's the difference? I had noticed this myself. But I don't care to publish papers about these things.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Physically, mentally. What's the difference? I had noticed this myself. But I don't care to publish papers about these things.
    The difference is that reality is not the same as the brain's view-of-reality. (the map is not the territory)
    Objects don't exist in reality. But the brain divides reality in objects, nested in objects, nested in objects... And if you move objects you move them from object1 to object2. So in object1 you see function1 (substraction) happening, and in object2 you see function2 (addition) happening.
    Adding to an object requires subtracting from another object and vice versa.
    They look like 2 actions per object to the brain, but it is just one action.

    So the reason that there is a shadow is because the brain divides reality in objects, each object registering a reverse-effect of the other object (of the single action between these 2 objects). The reason the brain does not see the double (the shadow) is because it is limited to a certain number of objects. It does not see the double/shadow in the objects currently out of focus.

  6. #206
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    The difference is that reality is not the same as the brain's view-of-reality. (the map is not the territory)
    Objects don't exist in reality. But the brain divides reality in objects, nested in objects, nested in objects... And if you move objects you move them from object1 to object2. So in object1 you see function1 (substraction) happening, and in object2 you see function2 (addition) happening.
    Adding to an object requires subtracting from another object and vice versa.
    They look like 2 actions per object to the brain, but it is just one action.

    So the reason that there is a shadow is because the brain divides reality in objects, each object registering a reverse-effect of the other object (of the single action between these 2 objects). The reason the brain does not see the double (the shadow) is because it is limited to a certain number of objects. It does not see the double/shadow in the objects currently out of focus.
    Epistemology 101. I prefer Kantian Space and Time.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #207
    Senior Member robowolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Why do you say every human MUST have all functions? You think just having 1 or 2 functions (=being close to 1 or 2 functions, and far from the rest) is politically incorrect or something?
    No, but I've always seen the functions as some sort of basic components that constitute the underlying structure of every personality. I wouldn't say they're 8 machines, more like the elements inside a machine's engine, and if you remove one the system collapses.

    The 8 functions are just 8 theoretical points on the spectrum of all human personalities.
    And actually some of these functions cancel each other out by definition of the way Jung designed this model. (so you can at max have 4, which cancel out the other 4).
    Uhm. I thought this was the definition of the I/E N/S T/F J/P dichotomies.

    Question: if Ti is the opposite of Fe and the distance on the spectrum between the two is ten (zero is the middle, the perfect balance, -5 is Ti, +5 is Fe), it's possible that someone is -4 = 90% Ti, but that would mean he's also 10% Fe, and if like you said it's possible to be 100% Ti then it could also be possible to be 50% Ti an 50% Fe. I'm pretty sure I'm missing something but what?

    The nice part about Jung's function's though, is that they are uniformly spread over the spectrum. (Not just at weird locations with weird random distances like cities).
    I was trying to imagine something like a cube where every vertex corresponds to one function but it made no sense; so I thought maybe there are two spectra, one for the p functions and one for the j functions (two planes), and they intersect in a line whose coordinates determine one's type, but I don't think it would work. How would you represent this spectrum graphically?

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by robowolf View Post

    Question: if Ti is the opposite of Fe and the distance on the spectrum between the two is ten (zero is the middle, the perfect balance, -5 is Ti, +5 is Fe), it's possible that someone is -4 = 90% Ti, but that would mean he's also 10% Fe, and if like you said it's possible to be 100% Ti then it could also be possible to be 50% Ti an 50% Fe. I'm pretty sure I'm missing something but what?
    It's a zero sum game for the opposites.
    You make the mistake that Fe+Ti=100%, but Fe+Ti=0, so 90% Ti = -90% Fe.

    However, you could do 90% Ti + 10% Fi =100%, because these are not opposites (which is similar to -90% Fe -10% Te = -100%)
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  9. #209
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Even a robot cannot be only Ti without showing Fe! (or Ne without showing Si)
    A robot can certainly correct someone's arguments without any intention whatsoever to help them. A robot can certainly do one calculation without implying the mythical opposite of that calcuation. Likewise could a Vulcan... if he were so written.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    A robot can certainly correct someone's arguments without any intention whatsoever to help them. A robot can certainly do one calculation without implying the mythical opposite of that calcuation. Likewise could a Vulcan... if he were so written.
    You still don't understand....

    Yes, the intent is always one-sided (for example, just Ti).

    But, the effect in reality is always two-sided (for example, showing both Ti & Fe at the same time, even though the intent was just Ti).

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