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  1. #191
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    baseless? Fe is defined as illogical, the definition is the base. (Although a real human will not always fit the model, the Fe-type definition is exact)

    If you do not believe in the definitions of the typing system, then how can you even talk about this system ? What are you doing here?

    This shows you do not trust/understand typing at all.

    To discriminate and categorize human behaviour IS stereotyping/archetyping. If you don't like to do that, you are on the wrong forum.

    If I take everything you say as the truth, this is the simple answer:

    You are logically-selfish (nothing wrong with that). You are a Ti-user. (probably INTP).

    You are not an ENFJ for sure. ENFJ's are very spiritual, they will never say financial gain. Also their Ni will avoid the possibility of negative stereotype being attached to them if they would say "financial gain" (They are like smart social snakes keeping things discrete, even if they actually wanted financial gain, they would never say it for fear of being seen as a bad person).
    Also the fact that you write quite a lot is a sign you do not have Ni like an ENFJ, you are simply not discrete enough to have Ni.

    But we were not talking about Ni, we were talking about the fact whether you were Fe or Ti as first function.
    If you had Fe you would be willing to sacrifice yourself. An Fe roughly operates as a collective, not as an individual. Fe goes down with the ship, trying to keep it up even if its illogical from an individual/selfish perspective. Ti abandons the ship to save himself. You fall in the last category. (Nothing wrong with that).
    Wow, talk about pretentious and haughty.

    I actually believe it is you who has a limited understanding of what the functions mean. In fact, I don't think very many (if anyone) here will find your view of the functions to be accurate or correct. Stereotypes have some basis, but they are exactly what they are, stereotypes. Not everyone is going to fit them, and to apply such rigid rules to functions break the system, as we're talking about something incredibly fluid and dynamic: personality.

    I'll ask you a simple question: Do you believe that it is impossible for any atheist to be an ENFJ?

    I'll be making another thread shortly to clear up my type for you.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  2. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Wow, talk about pretentious and haughty.

    I actually believe it is you who has a limited understanding of what the functions mean. In fact, I don't think very many (if anyone) here will find your view of the functions to be accurate or correct. Stereotypes have some basis, but they are exactly what they are, stereotypes. Not everyone is going to fit them, and to apply such rigid rules to functions break the system, as we're talking about something incredibly fluid and dynamic: personality.

    I'll ask you a simple question: Do you believe that it is impossible for any atheist to be an ENFJ?

    I'll be making another thread shortly to clear up my type for you.
    Sorry, I did blurt out a lot, and I am unconventional and use a lot of non-consensus stuff, but I don't want to be pretentious.

    I don't know you at all, I can't say things for sure through your text-only answers. I am just trying here. I don't mean harm.

    And yes, an ENFJ can be an an atheist. In fact I know 2 such men of this scarce type (scarce for men according to statistics i read). I have a good friend ENFJ who is atheist, and an employee ENFJ who is atheist.

    P.S. I did a built-in disclaimer when I said you are INTP, i started out with this humble sentence: "If I take everything you say as the truth", and only after that I followed-up to type you. (Its mostly about understanding each other truthfully first, and by this sentence I basically say that this has not been established yet, and I cannot know for sure, but that your answers taken at face-value pointed to INTP.)

  3. #193
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    And yes, an ENFJ can be an an atheist. In fact I know 2 such men of this scarce type (scarce for men according to statistics i read). I have a good friend ENFJ who is atheist, and an employee ENFJ who is atheist.
    I take it these statistics only cover US citizens. People in Europe, where Jung lived, generally are a lot less 'spiritual' and have outgrown it even more since Jung wrote his big book. Do you think your assumptions about ENFJs hold true outside the US, in Europe, for instance?

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I take it these statistics only cover US citizens. People in Europe, where Jung lived, generally are a lot less 'spiritual' and have outgrown it even more since Jung wrote his big book. Do you think your assumptions about ENFJs hold true outside the US, in Europe, for instance?
    Are you trying to derail the subject? Haha, they have to blame you now, not me.

    In California there is a lot of Ne (most new stuff comes from Cali, new inventions/movies/sports/whatever), as it attracted these types since the first Europeans came there. Ne helps to cross the ocean and reach the east coast, but you need even more Ne to imagine the West coast being the ultimate and leave your new East coast once you finally got there.
    So Ne-users tend to ever-move to the next best thing, the thing coming up soon.

    And Ne-users attract Ni-users. Because Ni-users are bored by the S-types, and only the Ne can break their ice. Ne-s are very shiny to Ni-users. Ni-s like to hide, but come out for Ne.

    But Se-users follow in the Ne-users footsteps, and actually reap the profit/champagne/sun/food that the Ne never actually consumed, because the Ne goes out to the next thing. And Ni does not like the location anymore, because it slowly became all Se (their opposite, Ni-s don't like it), and they can't find the Ne-s anymore. Then when the Se-users have eaten it all, the Si-users remember it used to be a great place and still desperately try and keep it up.

    So Si-users are still in the old towns of Europe. (And around 50% of the world's population is Si first or second function, did you know that?)

    But any old town can become new potential, once the Ne-users see it in that light and go there. (A tax haven for example).

    Of course this is just gross generalising, as in each new generation new types are born which differ from their parents. (although there might be a slight genetic filter to the types?)

  5. #195
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Are you trying to derail the subject? Haha, they have to blame you now, not me.

    In California there is a lot of Ne (most new stuff comes from Cali, new inventions/movies/sports/whatever), as it attracted these types since the first Europeans came there. Ne helps to cross the ocean and reach the east coast, but you need even more Ne to imagine the West coast being the ultimate and leave your new East coast once you finally got there.
    So Ne-users tend to ever-move to the next best thing, the thing coming up soon.

    And Ne-users attract Ni-users. Because Ni-users are bored by the S-types, and only the Ne can break their ice. Ne-s are very shiny to Ni-users. Ni-s like to hide, but come out for Ne.

    But Se-users follow in the Ne-users footsteps, and actually reap the profit/champagne/sun/food that the Ne never actually consumed, because the Ne goes out to the next thing. And Ni does not like the location anymore, because it slowly became all Se (their opposite, Ni-s don't like it), and they can't find the Ne-s anymore. Then when the Se-users have eaten it all, the Si-users remember it used to be a great place and still desperately try and keep it up.

    So Si-users are still in the old towns of Europe. (And around 50% of the world's population is Si first or second function, did you know that?)

    But any old town can become new potential, once the Ne-users see it in that light and go there. (A tax haven for example).

    Of course this is just gross generalising, as in each new generation new types are born which differ from their parents. (although there might be a slight genetic filter to the types?)
    Nice try.

    But perhaps for someone as occupied with geography as you, a locally restricted theory of type is not such a bad thing.

  6. #196
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Sorry, I did blurt out a lot, and I am unconventional and use a lot of non-consensus stuff, but I don't want to be pretentious.

    I don't know you at all, I can't say things for sure through your text-only answers. I am just trying here. I don't mean harm.

    And yes, an ENFJ can be an an atheist. In fact I know 2 such men of this scarce type (scarce for men according to statistics i read). I have a good friend ENFJ who is atheist, and an employee ENFJ who is atheist.

    P.S. I did a built-in disclaimer when I said you are INTP, i started out with this humble sentence: "If I take everything you say as the truth", and only after that I followed-up to type you. (Its mostly about understanding each other truthfully first, and by this sentence I basically say that this has not been established yet, and I cannot know for sure, but that your answers taken at face-value pointed to INTP.)
    You'll really need to watch how you come across then or you'll run into a whole lot of trouble with people here. Typing others can very easily result in ruffled feathers if it's not done right. For example, saying that an ENFJ can not be logical is insulting. Granted, I don't take it as a personal insult, but it is still and insult and shouldn't be said. It's not even right either. Fe-doms might not be the best as using classic hard-logic in some individuals, but it's not impossible. Your presentation of the functions and types comes across as so polarizingly binary and simplistic that almost everyone is going to balk at it.

    Ok then, so saying that an ENFJ can be an atheist (of which I am one), then stating (as you did previously) because I am not spiritual I can not be ENFJ is not valid. Religiosity has no bearing on type.

    Edit: Sorry if this post comes across as acusatory or scolding. Not my intention!
    Last edited by Hard; 01-06-2015 at 12:32 AM. Reason: added note
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  7. #197
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    I moved the latest interpersonal bickering to Off-Topic Posts. This isn't middle school. Please address such concerns elsewhere, and keep at least within spitting distance of the OP here.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes Hard liked this post

  8. #198
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    Most of the aspies I've met have been INTP. Haven't met a single one who was INTJ.
    ISTP... I think
    4w5 The Bohemian
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    ~The crowd hates me because I refuse to let anyone stand alone~

  9. #199
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    The only pattern I've noticed is that all the aspies I know happen to be N. But, with such a small sample size, that doesn't necessarily say much.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by robowolf View Post
    I agree that Vulcans are Ti-Ne, but they're not stereotypical INTPs. INTPs are Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, their feeling function is the last one and might be a bit underdeveloped but it's there. They're much more comfortable making logical decisions but they're still human.
    It has nothing to do with being human or not. Even a robot cannot be only Ti without showing Fe! (or Ne without showing Si)

    You simply haven't heard of the shadow effect if you say something like that. (It's my duty to tell you, because it improves the world)

    ....Would you cry hard if I told you that your buddies at function 3&4 were merely shadows that don't actually exist?

    THE PROFOUND THING IS:
    It is physically impossible to do a Ti act without AT THE SAME TIME also do an Fe act. (This is deep philosophical Tao stuff!)

    Real life example:
    Lets say the logical robot/vulcan warns somebody upon that person's logical flaws (like he is Ti-ing the shit out of him ). The Vulcan/robot's intent is merely to correct faulty logic, it cares only about universally correct math/logic, it does not "care" about the other at all.
    But what happens as a coincidence if you warn somebody for faulty logic??? >>>> YOU HELP THEM! >> you act like an Fe!!
    Correcting logic (Ti-like) shows the same signal, as if you care for them (Fe-like)!

    For a casual outside observer, who has never seen the Vulcan before, and just sees a quick shot of him, it will be impossible to determine: was he Fe-ing? was he Ti-ing? the observer won't know, all the observer sees is a double reflection on both sides of the Ti-Fe axis. That is, if he is a good observer, as a biased observer might only see it from one side. (A great example/metaphore about being biased: Think of that famous animated pic of a ballerina dancer's slihouette, turning left for some people, turning right for others, and only some really good observers can actually see the ballerina doing both, and even those good observers can alternate in both directions, but can never see both at the same time. You have to be quite a skilled observer to know that reality can hit you twice.).

    We can only determine which side was the original intent, by following the Vulcan a bit longer. Actually we can never determine, we can only do statistics and until the chance that this guy is Ti is pretty big and the chance that he is Fe is pretty small, then we say : ok he's Ti. (but in real life its just calculated gambling)

    The inside intent of a person is a black box, and remains so forever, we can only try to guess well by using statistics/chances, and the chances improve the longer you observe.
    Likes chubber liked this post

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