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  1. #171
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    I would be even better if its just ISTP+INTP (e.g. Ti-doms) in my opinion.

    Although lack of imagination and routine is obviously also fitting an Si-dom (ISTJ), the Si-Dom/ISTJ is a perception-dominant! While aspergers/autists seem not very good observers , and more of the logically decide first, look later type. Thus, first Ti, and later/second Se/Ne seems a good fit, thus INTP+ISTP
    I was taking a jab at a 5 year old post of mine showcasing the poor understanding of both MBTI and Asperger's I had at the time.
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  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    I was taking a jab at a 5 year old post of mine showcasing the poor understanding of both MBTI and Asperger's I had at the time.
    Ok, I consider myself very qualified in MBTI/JCF, its been my job and my life for 10 years, but i don't know very much about Aspergers to be honest.

    So what did you learn about Aspergers in those 5 years?

  3. #173
    hypersane Hive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Ok, I consider myself very qualified in MBTI/JCF, its been my job and my life for 10 years, but i don't know very much about Aspergers to be honest.

    So what did you learn about Aspergers in those 5 years?
    While routine may be paramount for many aspies in their everyday lives, they do in fact perceive and understand other people's emotions well (cognitive empathy), but have trouble responding appropriately to them (affective empathy). Also the shitload of artists with the condition (Stanley Kubrick, David Byrne, Gary Numan, to name a few) speaks volumes about their capacity for imagination.
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  4. #174
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    While routine may be paramount for many aspies in their everyday lives, they do in fact perceive and understand other people's emotions well (cognitive empathy), but have trouble responding appropriately to them (affective empathy). Also the shitload of artists with the condition (Stanley Kubrick, David Byrne, Gary Numan, to name a few) speaks volumes about their capacity for imagination.
    Good stuff. In line with what I've learned from 20 years of being in a relationship with an aspie, and 10 years of raising one.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    While routine may be paramount for many aspies in their everyday lives, they do in fact perceive and understand other people's emotions well (cognitive empathy), but have trouble responding appropriately to them (affective empathy). Also the shitload of artists with the condition (Stanley Kubrick, David Byrne, Gary Numan, to name a few) speaks volumes about their capacity for imagination.
    Sounds like myself. I've always related aspergers to the cognitive function Te. I have a history of irrationally organizing things, which I associate with aspergers. Now, I've grown out of it mostly, but I have been diagnosed with aspergers before. I did take a test that told me I did not have aspergers though. I don't know where to find that test. But yeah, I predict Te leads to a bunch of false positives when coupled with cerebral personality traits like in many people. Same with Ti, but I don't know much about that one. This means Ns are most likely to be diagnosed. Especially INTJs. Extroversion goes against the definition of aspergers, so introverts are probably the most likely to be pegged with this. Hrrm. Yeah, this conceptualization is makes sense enough for me, although it has no data backing it up. I think a good deal of Si users would be diagnosed, because they can be considered in their heads. Especially when coupled with Te. I do know an ISTP who was diagnosed. So pretty much the people who will not be diagnosed are extroverted people, sensing people, and people with feelings as one of the top two, with the exception of those who are in their heads (intuitive type people).

    Edit: Actually, the statistics support this theory.

  6. #176
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Sounds like myself. I've always related aspergers to the cognitive function Te. I have a history of irrationally organizing things, which I associate with aspergers. Now, I've grown out of it mostly, but I have been diagnosed with aspergers before. I did take a test that told me I did not have aspergers though. I don't know where to find that test. But yeah, I predict Te leads to a bunch of false positives when coupled with cerebral personality traits like in many people. Same with Ti, but I don't know much about that one. This means Ns are most likely to be diagnosed. Especially INTJs. Extroversion goes against the definition of aspergers, so introverts are probably the most likely to be pegged with this. Hrrm. Yeah, this conceptualization is makes sense enough for me, although it has no data backing it up. I think a good deal of Si users would be diagnosed, because they can be considered in their heads. Especially when coupled with Te. I do know an ISTP who was diagnosed. So pretty much the people who will not be diagnosed are extroverted people, sensing people, and people with feelings as one of the top two, with the exception of those who are in their heads (intuitive type people).

    Edit: Actually, the statistics support this theory.
    I know an ESFP who was diagnosed at 18. he's so ESFP it sort of hurts.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #177
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    It could be that I fell into the same shadow trap that I described above. It could be that I have read your Fe as Ti.

    You still seem to very logical to me. (Fe-users are not logical.) Its hard to judge by a few text messages alone of course.

    In real life I can test if you are a Ti or Fe, by forcing you into a tough situation. Both Fe & Ti are helpful to others, but in a tough situation I can easily separate them:
    - Fe is willing to take itself down / sacrificing its own tasks / its own projects / its own life, for helping out others.
    - Ti is NOT willing to take itself down / NOT sacrificing its own tasks /its own projects / its own life, for helping out others.

    Lets say a heavy truck falls on a few people, and they are all pushing the truck up to try to get out of it. They are your friends, and you don't like it if they die obviously.
    The Fe would join under the truck, pushing the truck up, willing to be sacrificed regardless of logic. It will not calculate in advance if the group can actually win from the truck or collapse on them by lack of pushing power. The (most extreme form of) Fe is willing to die here.
    The Ti would not just join under the truck, trying to push the truck up, unless he can logically deduct that through his extra push the group can win from the truck. If there is a big chance he will die, the Ti will not do it, as it would be illogical: its bad enough that his friends are dying, it would be even worse if he dies as well, just by doing something stupid. Alternatively Ti would help push for as long as he could from a safe position on the side, until things start getting dangerous and then he would jump out to save himself. As it would be totally illogical to stay there and die there as well.

    In such case, if you answer: yes I would be a person who is willing to die under the truck to join the rest in trying to save themselves >> you are a true Fe. If you answer all kinds of logical reasons to yourself why yes or no, then you are too logical to be willing to die there, and you are a Ti.

    p.s. To be honest, this is an Fe indicator. As you are talking about what one "SHOULD" do. (But I still saw a lot more Ti indicators).
    I could not disagree more that Fe users are illogical. That is a baseless stereotype. Any type can be logical or illogical. It's the manner in which they are (or are not) logical that counts. While I consider myself to be quite logical and rational, it doesn't mean that I always am though, or that I use it right. Your point of me using "should" statement is noteworthy. I make A LOT of should statements. It's actually a big hallmark of who I am and how I operate. I've had to go to therapy over this issue because it's caused me anxiety and stress in the past. I'll make all kinds of should statements about myself: "I should be like this", "I should do that", "things should go like this". When they don't go as envisioned I would get all kinds of bent out of shape and get focused on the "but, it should be, I must make it as it should be." and have a difficult time letting go. Despite the fact that from my point of view, it's highly logical to make these should statements, as their outcome is the most rational standpoint and goal, it's irrational to approach it with a black and white view and path towards it, not considering the possibility that other routes could occur, or that if things are different, that one must adapt. My rigidity and desire to lock onto something and not deviate (rational) becomes irrational when one does not yield or bend despite it coming from a logical thought process to start with.

    As for the situation, I actually blend the two. When I see someone hurt, stuck, in pain, etc. I almost always check to make sure their ok or to see if I can help, and it's largely instinctual. However, I have a certain level of self preservation I must uphold. To me, it doesn't seem rational or logical to put your life in a clear risk for the sake of another unless their life clearly and objectively outweighs yours. When it comes to strangers, there is no way to divine what their worth is, so I do not see worth putting yourself in explicit risk of causing two people to die instead of one. With friends, this normally can be done, so that is slightly different. In your particular example, I would instinctively help as much as I could up to the point where it is obvious that one misstep would result in death. I would be calculating risk in my head at the same moment I am preforming actions. Most likely though, in hindsight I would realize "well, shit, I could have died there, I made an assumption I shouldn't have made about the risk". The thing is I am generally quite intuitive and it occurs on a level I don't always perceive and I'll often sense if someone is outright dangerous or not without thought (hence in the moment calculation) and go for it. Then realize consciously what it actually was in hindsight. Occasionally, I'll realize in hindsight that if I was consciously aware I would have been hesitant.

    But yes, I am selfish in the sense that if I see that I am about to die, but if I save myself another person will die, I will save myself. Unless I was currently depressed or suicidal though, then I would opt for myself to die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    Which is most important to you: financial gain, or spiritual gain?
    Financial gain. I am not spiritual and do not care about that. This has no bearing on type at all though.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  8. #178
    Senior Member robowolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    If there is a big chance he will die, the Ti will not do it, as it would be illogical: its bad enough that his friends are dying, it would be even worse if he died as well
    Yes definitely, if said Ti user is a Vulcan. You can't predict how a human being would react to something like that, there are too many factors to consider. Maybe you're right, maybe he would just stand there and watch... Or maybe those are very close friends so he thinks "if a) I can save them and we all survive, that's nice, but if b) I can't save them then I'd rather die than live without them". In this case the most logical decision would be to go under the truck and push, so that if a) happens he'll be happy and if b) happens he won't be depressed or suffer from PTSD or whatever. Logic is not an end, it's a tool that can be used to reach an end. You seem to think that everyone wants the same thing/end, survival, which is also not an end, but a requirement that we need to meet if we want to get to what we want (obviously), so what if your Ti guy wants to be with his friends more than anything else (you're probably going to say that this is an illogical desire and a Ti-dom/aux would never entertain such thoughts, but you can't know that)? If his friends are dead, he won't be able to, so in terms of outcome his survival wouldn't make any difference, and not going under the truck to help would be illogical.
    Whether an action is logical or illogical depends on what who did it wanted out of it (e.g. if you want a pet and nothing prevents you from getting one, then it's logical to get one, but if you don't want a pet and nothing forces you to get one, then it's logical not to get one).

    (Or maybe the guy is just suicidal, but you probably don't think it's possible for a true Ti user to be suicidal)

  9. #179
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Financial gain. I am not spiritual and do not care about that. This has no bearing on type at all though.
    Oh?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  10. #180
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    Being open to new things is not very Ni-like. Ni constantly clears unnessary baggage. It considers possible doom, but not possible opportunity (that is Ne).
    Ni is quite stubborn on its fixed set of ideas. (Although Ne types are usually the only types that can break through the ice of the Ni, maybe you meant you are a Ni-user open to the ideas of Ne-users?). This is just general info, nothing personal, i dont know you.
    ----
    About the general thread here:

    The repetitive aspect of aspergers/autism is a clear Ti sign. And the long fixation on it shows a weak perception function. They could be INTPs which are far more Ti (and less Ne) than the average INTP.

    Another (unconventional) theory I have is that they could actually be a Ti/Te mix (unmapped terrain in MBTI). In that way their Ti mix with their Te (as functions dont exist, they are just navigation points on a spectrum), creating their own world, by just deciding/judging/taking-action. Thus not using a perception function much. (Perception would still be there, but much weaker, lower priority, like function 3 & 4).
    If function mixes may exist in this "new model" anyway, then their low/weak perception should logically be an Ne/Ni mix or Se/Si mix. As the entire jungian function geometry should be looked at from a 45 degrees perspective in this model. (This might generate Ne/Ni confusion in the MBTI model, if this model is true)

    Low-functioning autism (e.g. not the aspergers) could be a Fe/Fi mix. This is the "moron" archetype, which is a actually very common type if you research human history. Imagine this to get the picture: The moron will be the good over-helpful Fe as well as the raging demonic Fi, in one person. The moron is your best friend (Fe) or your worst enemy (Fi), all in one person, and is totally externalizing its control to an external controller (as unlogical/F as you can get). They are simply blind goons. (blind=strong judgement, weak perception). They seem "stupid" because of their weak perception, but once its in them, they can act upon it. The trick is to get it in them (through their weak perception).

    For me the Ti/Te and Fe/Fi is extra plausible because the shadow theory holds.
    They would be each others shadow (the high functioning Te/Ti autist and the low functioning Fe/Fi autist), and since shadows are hard to seperate for the casual/quick observer, it explains why it is all clustered into the big "autism" package by those casual/unknowing observers, known as psychologists-that-havent-heard-of-typology (and for sure not an advanced thing such as shadow theory). Especially in young children it is hard to see the underlying intent of the double-sided shadow effect of their actions. As the fruits of their labor evolve you can trace their intent, but before that its quite hard.
    I have to wonder about why Ni will only consider possible doom, because that is something inferior Ne would do. And as you clearly explain later, that function 3 & 4 are the shadow functions. If the shadow functions are negative, then wouldn't it make sense that function 1 & 2 are positive and thus Ni-Dom/Aux would be positive and not just thinking doom and gloom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    [...]

    There is something in MBTI which is weird and which is kind of stopping common shadow knowledge. The MBTI system is a bit weird in the way its setup under the hood. In MBTI the shadow functions are written as function 3&4, but these are not real functions as 1&2. The 3&4 shadow functions are just accidentally seen a lot. Thats why they put them on position 3&4. >> Because casual outside observers seem to "see these functions" working in you, while it is actually your function 1 & 2.
    MBTI is just a superficial theory. The answer is under the hood, with deeper knowledge of the functions. Because the functions themselves are defined by Jung as a system of opposites. You cannot have Ti without suppressing Fe. The more Ti, the less Fe. Even though a casual observer will see some (fake) Fe, there is no Fe in a Ti-user, or otherwise Fe will cancel-out/annihilate his Ti. If you mix them you get void/zero/nothing. Thus even-deveopment of all functions equates to becoming a dead stone. Your mind needs feedback in a certain direction to function, and this direction needs to be relatively stable to be able to adapt to it well over time (of which the effect is intelligence / learning).

    [...]


    I'm asking, because I considered being ISTJ based on that doom and gloom, which I then read up on happens to be associated with inferior Ne examples of ISFJ and ISTJ quickly imagining the worst possible outcomes in a new scenario, either people or objective, respectively.

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