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  1. #161
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal12345 View Post
    What is his relationship with the past? Does he like to talk about it or reminisce? And, does he "keep books" on people, that is, remember things about them that he either likes or dislikes?
    he doesn't really talk much about the past, more about theories and ideas. i'm not sure about the "keeping books" on people. i'll have to ask him.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    Aspies are actually usually extroverted when you talk about what they are interested in...this is actually one of the main things about asbergers, as the person will have trouble not talking about things they are interested in unless you inform them that you are not interested in it or they are developed enough to notice by observing your social cue.

    In fact, after talking to an Aspie, it will feel as if you were steam rolled by a mental dump which was entirely focused on one single area of knowledge, or several areas of knowledge, seemingly separate, but overlapping in ways you probably are unaware but that we assume you are.

    There are some extreme cases of borderline autism and Aspies where by the person almost never talks and can do intense things but this converges on almost pure autism whereby the person can do astounding calculations in their head but can barely tie their shoes. That is not how we are though for the most part. There may be a few people who can do these calculations and tie their shoes and they may be Aspies.

    Aspies are also notorious for saying things at inappropriate times which thwarts the introverted theory unless it is a case of awkward extroversion spurted by an undeveloped function.

    Also there are certain crowds where we come a live. I tend to be more extroverted around people who seem intelligent and open minded and more introverted around people who seem dangerously judgmental.
    from my understanding of asperger's syndrome, there isn't a correlation between introversion & extroversion. many are known to be quiet and socially anxious, but how much a person talks in a particular social situation isn't necessarily indicative of intro/extroversion. whether a person gets energized from isolation or socialization is the biggest indicator.
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  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Well if this was in some public place and I didn't know them I would be rather taken aback as it would seem very strange and suspicious that a random person would do this to me without any justification or reason to choose me. If I knew them or of them then it would be less so.

    I have had a situation like this happen though. Several years ago I was proctoring a final exam, and several students were still writing past time, so I call for them to stop firmly. A few still persisted so I raised my voice and made it very clear that if they didn't stop I would not accept their exam and take the matter up with their professor. Upon doing so after a few seconds, one of the girls broke down and started to sob quite badly. I felt a small level of guilt for triggering that. I waited several seconds and then went up to talk to her. In a very calm reassuring voice I asked her what was wrong and I applogize for being mean. She was inconsolable for several minutes but I got her to answer when I asked if she preferred if I left her alone and she said no. Once she regained her composure enough she informed me that a family member recently died, she didn't have the time to study, and had answered nearly all the questions but didn't bubble most of them in as she ran out of time (she circled them in the exam booklet though). I told her to relax as much as she could, that she need not worry about her exam right now and that I will work this out. I asked her to explain to me what's going on and open up as much as she felt comfortable with. She had a lot of built up insecurity and fear associated with family pressure to be great, and was struggling. I walked her through mindsets that she shouldn't have as they are unproductive and harmful to herself, and got her to consider different prospectives. Eventually I brought up the exam and told her that I will wait here and she can fill in her answers and take as much time as she needs to. She broke down a few times in the middle of it and just told her to let it out, it's ok, and that this will work out. Eventually she finished up and I gave her as much encouragement and support as I could. Despite the fact that I did not know her at all.

    Either way, I actually don't like these kinds of hypothetical examples like this because there is so much context that I don't have that could easily change what would occur, and I have to make a lot of assumptions that seem haphazardous and arbitrary. I would likely do very similar to that, and ask them what's wrong. It's very likely I will have time to put off for at least a few minutes for this person. If it was truly completely down to the wire, I would take a few minutes, ask them what's wrong and inform them I am so pressed for time that I have to finish my work before I can help or console them. I'd also make it abundntly clear that I am not trying to avoid, ignore, or demean their current state at all, but that I have to care for myself to a certain level before I can care for another. If they insist then I'd walk them to someone else who can take care of them for the time being.
    1) You start out with "If..... then...." >> this is logical reasoning, it's a Ti indicator

    2) "I walked her through mindsets that she shouldn't have as they are unproductive and harmful to herself, and got her to consider different prospectives." >> This is logically trying to help someone by pointing out logical flaws in her reasoning, this is also a Ti indicator. You also took over control to your side. She is probably an F, you are probably a T. The locus of control always moves to the T and away from the F.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Oops sorry, I did not catch the edit.

    I seldom read books. I'm an auditory learner and learn best buy listening to people talk, or by talking myself, and I supplement it with visual. That's not to say I can't learn from books, I can, I just try to avoid it when possible. Normally when I learn from books I look at figures, examples, and in particular graphs, and conceptualize those. I read text as needed to explain things when the images themselves don't speak enough or lack context.

    Accepting or rejecting learned material seems... odd? I mean, if it's factual information, there isn't really any rejection to happen. To do so is just an intellectual disservice. My gut instinct reaction though, almost always is to reject it all outright, or accept all, and I sometimes do that. In particular if I am lazy or already have a lot of information backlogged about that particular concept or idea (i.e. I already know and understand a lot about it and therefore can make leaps much easier with back support). However, I'll often think "wait a second, look at the details and each case, you don't know if that's call for reason to do so", and I'll force myself to look more closely at it to see if it's justified. Generally though, I am a very black and white thinker. I make a conscious effort to not do that though, albeit it's a challenge.
    With question2 I tried to provoke something else, that failed actually. But again I will analyze this:

    1) "To do so is just an intellectual disservice. ", you are trying to logically find the flaw, this is a Ti indicator. (Fe-users don't think about an intellectual disservice, actually they don't even "think", they "feel").

    2) "I'll often think "wait a second, look at the details and each case, you don't know if that's call for reason to do so", and I'll force myself to look more closely at it to see if it's justified.", logical deduction, and you take things apart (e.g. look at it closely / kind of reverse-engineering it), it's a Ti indicator.

    -------

    Also your locus of control is in yourself, or in universal logic, this is a T indicator. You do not externalize control to some other authority figure, like an F would naturally do.
    ----

    So you think you are an Fe dominant, but I think you are a Ti dominant. (An INTP actually).

    Ti is the polar opposite of Fe.

    The confusion might be there, because polar opposites show the same "signals" in outer reality. This is the same as saying: Ti leaves an Fe-shadow. And Fe leaves a Ti-shadow. If you act like one side (Fe or Ti) you automatically also act out the other side, this is a like a law of physics (metaphysics in this case). A casual observer cannot see the difference between Fe and Ti. To know whether it is one or the other we need to know the underlying intent of the actor. This can only be found by following the stream of thought of the actor instead of just 1 quick/casual snapshot of the actor.

    As an example:
    - Ti warns somebody about a logical flaw in its reasoning. The goal is to solve flawed logic.
    - Fe helps somebody out of "unlogical" love/compassion/devotion. The goal is to "unlogically" join them, merge with their problems, to work on it together.

    However both can look the same, and have the same effect: "the person is helped". If a casual/quick observer does not look at the details too much and takes a quick snapshot of such situation, then this observer cannot see the difference between Ti/Fe in this example.

    Maybe this example seems obviously different for Ti/Fe but in real life there can be many situations where Ti/Fe are almost similar, in the trails these functions leave in reality. In a lot of cases its very hard to see, unless you know the person well, and/or unless you have studied typology for a few years.

    Every Ti will have his fake-Fe following him in his life, like curse you cannot get rid of. After a while it will be generally known, to the Ti and the circle of daily friends, that the Ti is a helpful person. Kind of an "Fe". But this is just coincidence, it is only a (meta-)physical shadow effect of the real Ti intent.

    There is something in MBTI which is weird and which is kind of stopping common shadow knowledge. The MBTI system is a bit weird in the way its setup under the hood. In MBTI the shadow functions are written as function 3&4, but these are not real functions as 1&2. The 3&4 shadow functions are just accidentally seen a lot. Thats why they put them on position 3&4. >> Because casual outside observers seem to "see these functions" working in you, while it is actually your function 1 & 2.
    MBTI is just a superficial theory. The answer is under the hood, with deeper knowledge of the functions. Because the functions themselves are defined by Jung as a system of opposites. You cannot have Ti without suppressing Fe. The more Ti, the less Fe. Even though a casual observer will see some (fake) Fe, there is no Fe in a Ti-user, or otherwise Fe will cancel-out/annihilate his Ti. If you mix them you get void/zero/nothing. Thus even-deveopment of all functions equates to becoming a dead stone. Your mind needs feedback in a certain direction to function, and this direction needs to be relatively stable to be able to adapt to it well over time (of which the effect is intelligence / learning).

    ---

    P.S. Maybe as an Asperger, you have been hammered by society to "simulate" Fe to the maximum you can. And you have used the shadow effect of your Ti to show them Fe. Maybe you have focused on it so much that you even went into believing that you are an Fe?

    ----

    Disclaimer: I made very hasty conclusions about you here, because I tried to profile you, based on just a few lines of text from you. So I might be off for you personally, but since I think there is a big chance I am right, I just risked it, and told you what I think might be the case. In any case, the other general info would be of value anyway.
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  4. #164
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    1) You start out with "If..... then...." >> this is logical reasoning, it's a Ti indicator

    2) "I walked her through mindsets that she shouldn't have as they are unproductive and harmful to herself, and got her to consider different prospectives." >> This is logically trying to help someone by pointing out logical flaws in her reasoning, this is also a Ti indicator.

    With question2 I tried to provoke something else, that failed actually. But again I will analyze this:

    1) "To do so is just an intellectual disservice. ", you are trying to logically find the flaw, this is a Ti indicator.

    2) "I'll often think "wait a second, look at the details and each case, you don't know if that's call for reason to do so", and I'll force myself to look more closely at it to see if it's justified.", logical deduction, and you take things apart (e.g. look at it closely / kind of reverse-engineering it), it's a Ti indicator.
    I suppose so. I really do not think I am a Ti dominant, or even secondary. I do consider myself a rather logical person and I strife to take a "if then" approach to as many things as I can. Largely because as a scientist this is how you have to be, and I find it to be the clearest way to navigate life. I used to think that in socionics I was LSI, but everyone here balked at it (and I mean pretty much everyone), and after reconsidering I realized while I *strive* to be like LSI, I am actually EIE at the end of the day.

    You wouldn't be the first to think I am more T based. @EJCC thought I was at first as well, even after asking me these sorts of questions. It doesn't really become apparent that I am ENFJ until observation over time.
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  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    You wouldn't be the first to think I am more T based. @EJCC thought I was at first as well, even after asking me these sorts of questions. It doesn't really become apparent that I am ENFJ until observation over time.
    It could be that I fell into the same shadow trap that I described above. It could be that I have read your Fe as Ti.

    You still seem to very logical to me. (Fe-users are not logical.) Its hard to judge by a few text messages alone of course.

  6. #166
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    To Hard:

    In real life I can test if you are a Ti or Fe, by forcing you into a tough situation. Both Fe & Ti are helpful to others, but in a tough situation I can easily separate them:
    - Fe is willing to take itself down / sacrificing its own tasks / its own projects / its own life, for helping out others.
    - Ti is NOT willing to take itself down / NOT sacrificing its own tasks /its own projects / its own life, for helping out others.

    Lets say a heavy truck falls on a few people, and they are all pushing the truck up to try to get out of it. They are your friends, and you don't like it if they die obviously.
    The Fe would join under the truck, pushing the truck up, willing to be sacrificed regardless of logic. It will not calculate in advance if the group can actually win from the truck or collapse on them by lack of pushing power. The (most extreme form of) Fe is willing to die here.
    The Ti would not just join under the truck, trying to push the truck up, unless he can logically deduct that through his extra push the group can win from the truck. If there is a big chance he will die, the Ti will not do it, as it would be illogical: its bad enough that his friends are dying, it would be even worse if he dies as well, just by doing something stupid. Alternatively Ti would help push for as long as he could from a safe position on the side, until things start getting dangerous and then he would jump out to save himself. As it would be totally illogical to stay there and die there as well.

    In such case, if you answer: yes I would be a person who is willing to die under the truck to join the rest in trying to save themselves >> you are a true Fe. If you answer all kinds of logical reasons to yourself why yes or no, then you are too logical to be willing to die there, and you are a Ti.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    as a scientist this is how you have to be
    p.s. To be honest, this is an Fe indicator. As you are talking about what one "SHOULD" do. (But I still saw a lot more Ti indicators).

  8. #168
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I suppose so. I really do not think I am a Ti dominant, or even secondary. I do consider myself a rather logical person and I strife to take a "if then" approach to as many things as I can. Largely because as a scientist this is how you have to be, and I find it to be the clearest way to navigate life. I used to think that in socionics I was LSI, but everyone here balked at it (and I mean pretty much everyone), and after reconsidering I realized while I *strive* to be like LSI, I am actually EIE at the end of the day.

    You wouldn't be the first to think I am more T based. @EJCC thought I was at first as well, even after asking me these sorts of questions. It doesn't really become apparent that I am ENFJ until observation over time.
    Which is most important to you: financial gain, or spiritual gain?
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  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Considering some traits related to the diagnose like need for routine, trouble relating to other people's feelings and lack of imagination, my qualified guess is that ISTJ, ISTP and INTP are the most common types amongst the aspies.
    Hm, yeah, solid points. Trenchant analysis. Good job.
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    Considering some traits related to the diagnose like need for routine, trouble relating to other people's feelings and lack of imagination, my qualified guess is that ISTJ, ISTP and INTP are the most common types amongst the aspies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hive View Post
    Hm, yeah, solid points. Trenchant analysis. Good job.
    I would be even better if its just ISTP+INTP (e.g. Ti-doms) in my opinion.

    Although lack of imagination and routine is obviously also fitting an Si-dom (ISTJ), the Si-Dom/ISTJ is a perception-dominant! While aspergers/autists seem not very good observers , and more of the logically decide first, look later type. Thus, first Ti, and later/second Se/Ne seems a good fit, thus INTP+ISTP.

    P.S> some also think that INTP & schizoid are correlated. What is the difference between schizoid and asperger?

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