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Thread: Asperger's Syndrome and MBTI type.

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himeko009 View Post
    No, they tend to avoid the physical world because of sensory hypersensitivity or have hyposensitivity. I have AS and am INTJ (Ni dominant), and am more open to new things (since I have planned before and feel in control of things) and observing the environment than the Si / Ne aspies I know, despite have more sensory difficults than many of them. And difficulties (Difficulties, not a "total lack") in use Ni and Si is linked to deficit in executive function, but it has linked more to ADHD than Autism, due it people with ADHD tend to be perceivers.
    Being open to new things is not very Ni-like. Ni constantly clears unnessary baggage. It considers possible doom, but not possible opportunity (that is Ne).
    Ni is quite stubborn on its fixed set of ideas. (Although Ne types are usually the only types that can break through the ice of the Ni, maybe you meant you are a Ni-user open to the ideas of Ne-users?). This is just general info, nothing personal, i dont know you.
    ----
    About the general thread here:

    The repetitive aspect of aspergers/autism is a clear Ti sign. And the long fixation on it shows a weak perception function. They could be INTPs which are far more Ti (and less Ne) than the average INTP.

    Another (unconventional) theory I have is that they could actually be a Ti/Te mix (unmapped terrain in MBTI). In that way their Ti mix with their Te (as functions dont exist, they are just navigation points on a spectrum), creating their own world, by just deciding/judging/taking-action. Thus not using a perception function much. (Perception would still be there, but much weaker, lower priority, like function 3-8).
    If function mixes may exist in this "new model" anyway, then their low/weak perception should logically be an Ne/Ni mix or Se/Si mix. As the entire jungian function geometry should be looked at from a 45 degrees perspective in this model. (This might generate Ne/Ni confusion in the MBTI model, if this model is true)

    Low-functioning autism (e.g. not the aspergers) could be a Fe/Fi mix. This is the "moron" archetype, which is a actually very common type if you research human history. Imagine this to get the picture: The moron will be the good over-helpful Fe as well as the raging demonic Fi, in one person. The moron is your best friend (Fe) or your worst enemy (Fi), all in one person, and is totally externalizing its control to an external controller (as unlogical/F as you can get). They are simply blind goons, because their perception function is weak, its all judgement. (blind=strong judgement, weak perception). They seem "stupid" because of their weak perception, but once its in them, they can act upon it. The trick is to get it in them (through their weak perception).

    For me the Ti/Te and Fe/Fi is extra plausible because the shadow theory holds.
    They would be each others shadow (the high functioning Te/Ti autist and the low functioning Fe/Fi autist), and since shadows are hard to seperate for the casual/quick observer, it explains why it is all clustered into the big "autism" package by those casual/unknowing observers, known as psychologists-that-havent-heard-of-typology (and for sure not an advanced thing such as shadow theory). Especially in young children it is hard to see the underlying intent of the double-sided shadow effect of their actions. As the fruits of their labor evolve you can trace their intent, but before that its quite hard.
    Last edited by Researcher; 01-12-2015 at 12:43 PM.
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  2. #152
    Seal Down Array Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    About the general thread here:

    The repetitive aspect of aspergers/autism is a clear Ti sign. And the long fixation on it shows a weak perception function. They could be INTPs which are far more Ti (and less Ne) than the average INTP.

    Another (unconventional) theory I have is that they could actually be a Ti/Te mix (unmapped terrain in MBTI). In that way their Ti mix with their Te (as functions dont exist, they are just navigation points on a spectrum), creating their own world, by just deciding/judging/taking-action. Thus not using a perception function much. (Perception would still be there, but much weaker, lower priority, like function 3 & 4).
    If function mixes may exist in this "new model" anyway, then their low/weak perception should logically be an Ne/Ni mix or Se/Si mix. As the entire jungian function geometry should be looked at from a 45 degrees perspective in this model. (This might generate Ne/Ni confusion in the MBTI model, if this model is true)

    Low-functioning autism (e.g. not the aspergers) could be a Fe/Fi mix. This is the "moron" archetype, which is a actually very common type if you research human history. Imagine this to get the picture: The moron will be the good over-helpful Fe as well as the raging demonic Fi, in one person. The moron is your best friend (Fe) or your worst enemy (Fi), all in one person, and is totally externalizing its control to an external controller (as unlogical/F as you can get). They are simply blind goons. (blind=strong judgement, weak perception). They seem "stupid" because of their weak perception, but once its in them, they can act upon it. The trick is to get it in them (through their weak perception).

    For me the Ti/Te and Fe/Fi is extra plausible because the shadow theory holds.
    They would be each others shadow (the high functioning Te/Ti autist and the low functioning Fe/Fi autist), and since shadows are hard to seperate for the casual/quick observer, it explains why it is all clustered into the big "autism" package by those casual/unknowing observers, known as psychologists-that-havent-heard-of-typology (and for sure not an advanced thing such as shadow theory). Especially in young children it is hard to see the underlying intent of the double-sided shadow effect of their actions. As the fruits of their labor evolve you can trace their intent, but before that its quite hard.
    I'm an ENFJ with very prominent Fe (ask anyone around here and I'm sure they'll agree), yet I have Asperger's. My Ti is crappy (I try to use it quite often, but it doesn't mean it comes naturally or that it goes over well). I'm also quite intelligent (I'm in grad school for organic chemistry), and quite functional (diverse circle of friends and most who meet me wouldn't guess I have Asperger's unless they know to look for it or know me 1-1 for long periods of time, or live with me).
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I'm an ENFJ with very prominent Fe (ask anyone around here and I'm sure they'll agree), yet I have Asperger's. My Ti is crappy (I try to use it quite often, but it doesn't mean it comes naturally or that it goes over well). I'm also quite intelligent (I'm in grad school for organic chemistry), and quite functional (diverse circle of friends and most who meet me wouldn't guess I have Asperger's unless they know to look for it or know me 1-1 for long periods of time, or live with me).
    OK, I might be off, it was a quick hunch. I do know a lot about functions, but I am not an Asperger & Autism expert unfortunately, so maybe I went a bit too fast (for someone who only knows the wikipedia stuff about Asperger & Autism).

    Your case is very interesting though as it shocks my preconceived model, I like that. So the first thing I would like to check: Are you sure you are an ENFJ? And since you will probably say "yes", let me ask you this directly: How does your dominant Fe show symptoms of Asperger in your opinion? Can you explain how your Fe behaves in general? (please skip your other function, for now).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    OK, I might be off, it was a quick hunch. I do know a lot about functions, but I am not an Asperger & Autism expert unfortunately, so maybe I went a bit too fast (for someone who only knows the wikipedia stuff about Asperger & Autism).

    Your case is very interesting though as it shocks my preconceived model, I like that. So the first thing I would like to check: Are you sure you are an ENFJ? And since you will probably say "yes", let me ask you this directly: How does your dominant Fe show symptoms of Asperger in your opinion? Can you explain how your Fe behaves in general? (please skip your other function, for now).
    Yes I am quite confidant, and you can ask many people here that they would agree to this. My Fe shows up strongest in that I make judgements and base judgements off my external environment. I do not trust nor enjoy making decisions or judgement calls unless they can be supported by something external, as I feel that externals validate and support these much more strongly and add weight and justification to them. When they are individual to just me it's unsupported, weak, and I don't feel like I can stand on them with conviction or trust them enough. I'm very big on group organization, making sure things are "orderly" and planned in general. I hate chaos and random ideas and their implimentation without forethought or adherence to some sort of ruleset. In particular if they are going to impact other people or risk throwing some established system out of whack.

    It's difficult to say how my Fe shows aspergers. It's more of how it shows up when Fe is unable to work. They way I navigate the social world (which I've become quite good at over the years) is I have a backlog or catalog of sorts of how to behave, how to talk, and how to be/exist in various social situations or contexts. When I enter these, I sort of call on these tapes or recordings of sorts, and I autoplay them. I don't really make the conscious decision to do this though. It just sort of happens on its own. However, occasionally I will hit a new situation where Fe doesn't have one of these. There is no ruleset, no template to work off of. In those, I will freeze. Or, I will revert to something else that allows me to be still and hide, and when I am actively persued, I can call on something that allows me to temporarly put on a face and deflect them so they do not know that I am stressed, confused, or worried, as I am very very cautious and attentive to how I appears to others. In essence I manipulate myself and others to roll the situation off. Eventually though I will start to learn how to act and won't need to do that anymore. However there are some environments and situations I'll never be fully comfortable in or adapt well to.

    Is that sufficient? (I can expand more if needed be).
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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    Hi Hard, I will try to do a simple typing check-up about you being an Fe-dominant. Could you answer this?

    (1)

    Lets say you are at school, somebody pops up at your desk and starts crying out loud in your face about some personal problem he is having, and he wants help urgently. He is not dying or anything, but its obviously important to him. But you have an important paper to finish, if you don't finish it, you might have to do the whole school year again. And you are running out of time.

    What do you do? Honestly, how would this encounter unfold? What would he say, what would you say. And what goes on in your mind? While it unfolds like that... Try to predict it all.

    (2)

    If you learn from school books, do you usually dissect ideas from the books into smaller parts, accepting some and rejecting others. Or do you take them as big packages of info, in an all or nothing way? Lets say its the 10 commandments of the bible you are studying, just to use an example of a package that exists as 10 parts if you dissect them. Would you be: (A) inclined to accept 3, reject 7, for example. (dissecting them) Or (B) inclined to either reject the entire 10 commandments package or accept the entire 10 commandments package.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    I will try to do a simple typing check-up:

    Lets say you are at school, somebody pops up at your desk and starts crying out loud in your face about some personal problem he is having, and he wants help urgently. He is not dying or anything, but its obviously important to him. But you have an important paper to finish, if you don't finish it, you might have to do the whole school year again. And you are running out of time.

    What do you do? Honestly, how would this encounter unfold? What would he say, what would you stay. And what goes on in your mind? While it unfolds like that. Try to predict it all.
    Well if this was in some public place and I didn't know them I would be rather taken aback as it would seem very strange and suspicious that a random person would do this to me without any justification or reason to choose me. If I knew them or of them then it would be less so.

    I have had a situation like this happen though. Several years ago I was proctoring a final exam, and several students were still writing past time, so I call for them to stop firmly. A few still persisted so I raised my voice and made it very clear that if they didn't stop I would not accept their exam and take the matter up with their professor. Upon doing so after a few seconds, one of the girls broke down and started to sob quite badly. I felt a small level of guilt for triggering that. I waited several seconds and then went up to talk to her. In a very calm reassuring voice I asked her what was wrong and I applogize for being mean. She was inconsolable for several minutes but I got her to answer when I asked if she preferred if I left her alone and she said no. Once she regained her composure enough she informed me that a family member recently died, she didn't have the time to study, and had answered nearly all the questions but didn't bubble most of them in as she ran out of time (she circled them in the exam booklet though). I told her to relax as much as she could, that she need not worry about her exam right now and that I will work this out. I asked her to explain to me what's going on and open up as much as she felt comfortable with. She had a lot of built up insecurity and fear associated with family pressure to be great, and was struggling. I walked her through mindsets that she shouldn't have as they are unproductive and harmful to herself, and got her to consider different prospectives. Eventually I brought up the exam and told her that I will wait here and she can fill in her answers and take as much time as she needs to. She broke down a few times in the middle of it and just told her to let it out, it's ok, and that this will work out. Eventually she finished up and I gave her as much encouragement and support as I could. Despite the fact that I did not know her at all.

    Either way, I actually don't like these kinds of hypothetical examples like this because there is so much context that I don't have that could easily change what would occur, and I have to make a lot of assumptions that seem haphazardous and arbitrary. I would likely do very similar to that, and ask them what's wrong. It's very likely I will have time to put off for at least a few minutes for this person. If it was truly completely down to the wire, I would take a few minutes, ask them what's wrong and inform them I am so pressed for time that I have to finish my work before I can help or console them. I'd also make it abundntly clear that I am not trying to avoid, ignore, or demean their current state at all, but that I have to care for myself to a certain level before I can care for another. If they insist then I'd walk them to someone else who can take care of them for the time being.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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    Pubic Enemy #1 Array Crabs's Avatar
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    my bf is an infp and though he hasn't officially been diagnosed with asperger's, it has been suggested by several doctors. he's very articulate and intelligent, but develops these obsessive interests in particular subjects and seems to miss certain social cues. he also has sensory sensitivity. in general, he gets bored with repetition, especially at his job, but avoids novelty in social situations and is quite reserved. small talk can be really difficult for him, although if you talk to him about a topic that interests him, he really opens up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    my bf is an infp and though he hasn't officially been diagnosed with asperger's, it has been suggested by several doctors. he's very articulate and intelligent, but develops these obsessive interests in particular subjects and seems to miss certain social cues. he also has sensory sensitivity. in general, he gets bored with repetition, especially at his job, but avoids novelty in social situations and is quite reserved. small talk can be really difficult for him, although if you talk to him about a topic that interests him, he really opens up.
    What is his relationship with the past? Does he like to talk about it or reminisce? And, does he "keep books" on people, that is, remember things about them that he either likes or dislikes?
    Reminder (for others):
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    Quote Originally Posted by Researcher View Post
    (2)

    If you learn from school books, do you usually dissect ideas from the books into smaller parts, accepting some and rejecting others. Or do you take them as big packages of info, in an all or nothing way? Lets say its the 10 commandments of the bible you are studying, just to use an example of a package that exists as 10 parts if you dissect them. Would you be: (A) inclined to accept 3, reject 7, for example. (dissecting them) Or (B) inclined to either reject the entire 10 commandments package or accept the entire 10 commandments package.
    Oops sorry, I did not catch the edit.

    I seldom read books. I'm an auditory learner and learn best buy listening to people talk, or by talking myself, and I supplement it with visual. That's not to say I can't learn from books, I can, I just try to avoid it when possible. Normally when I learn from books I look at figures, examples, and in particular graphs, and conceptualize those. I read text as needed to explain things when the images themselves don't speak enough or lack context.

    Accepting or rejecting learned material seems... odd? I mean, if it's factual information, there isn't really any rejection to happen. To do so is just an intellectual disservice. My gut instinct reaction though, almost always is to reject it all outright, or accept all, and I sometimes do that. In particular if I am lazy or already have a lot of information backlogged about that particular concept or idea (i.e. I already know and understand a lot about it and therefore can make leaps much easier with back support). However, I'll often think "wait a second, look at the details and each case, you don't know if that's call for reason to do so", and I'll force myself to look more closely at it to see if it's justified. Generally though, I am a very black and white thinker. I make a conscious effort to not do that though, albeit it's a challenge.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari

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    Aspies are actually usually extroverted when you talk about what they are interested in...this is actually one of the main things about asbergers, as the person will have trouble not talking about things they are interested in unless you inform them that you are not interested in it or they are developed enough to notice by observing your social cue.

    In fact, after talking to an Aspie, it will feel as if you were steam rolled by a mental dump which was entirely focused on one single area of knowledge, or several areas of knowledge, seemingly separate, but overlapping in ways you probably are unaware but that we assume you are.

    There are some extreme cases of borderline autism and Aspies where by the person almost never talks and can do intense things but this converges on almost pure autism whereby the person can do astounding calculations in their head but can barely tie their shoes. That is not how we are though for the most part. There may be a few people who can do these calculations and tie their shoes and they may be Aspies.

    Aspies are also notorious for saying things at inappropriate times which thwarts the introverted theory unless it is a case of awkward extroversion spurted by an undeveloped function.

    Also there are certain crowds where we come a live. I tend to be more extroverted around people who seem intelligent and open minded and more introverted around people who seem dangerously judgmental.
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