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  1. #121
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The way it was explained to me, if one can't rely on the social cues that others use to know how to respond to people -- like because there's too much information coming in to sort it out -- then you have no choice but to use logic (T) and make inferences (N) on that basis. This will affect type test results.
    But then what type do we say that they are? An S who's mistyped, or is AS simply a factor in them being NT?
    I know an ISFJ well IRL who has Asperger's... I guess it's odd to think about how someone who doesn't pick up on social cues could use Fe, but if you look at it through the lens of Fe as a thinking process that focuses on "relationships between people", and understanding that people with Aspergers may struggle to empathize but can certainly sympathize, then I think you can kinda see how someone with Aspergers could still be people-focused and relationship-focused despite not seeing the fuzzy cues. I think the key there is also Ti - the ISFJ I know is certainly Ti-heavy, and it's very clearly Ti, not Te. But autism also is often characterized by hyperfocus, memory for concrete detail, sensitivity to sensory input, a tendency to be overly literal, and preference for repetition/familiarity, all of which can easily tie into Si-type processing.

    I have noticed, however, despite this ISFJ's struggle to not be literal and concrete, he does seem to perform well at NT-oriented (abstract logical) tasks and seems to converse more easily and fluidly with NTs.

  2. #122
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Just curious; how do you know he's ISFJ?
    If it's strong Si, then for an INTP with AS, this will not only be strong as it is ("tertiary temptation"), but will look even stronger because of that "concrete" focus.

    Continuing to reflect on this stuff, I also think part of the problem is thinking of the functions as things we "use". Fe isn't really "picking up social cues". That's a single trait, that may stem from a functional perspective, but is not exclusive to one. (It can come with Se or even Si as well).
    So what you said is correct; it's a focus on "relationships between people".
    And then "not picking up social cues" is also likely a trait, that occurs in AS, but is not necessarily a defining factor. It just happens that most Aspies are NT's, so their lack of certain S and F skills becomes magnified. AS is essentially a sensory overload that will play out that way for NT's (like emotions are a form of sensation, so as Aspies often report, they feel overwhelmed by them; and thus T will feel like a much "safer" realm for them). I guess SF Aspies might be able to handle the emotions better, but have other problems, and probably find themselves in a bind with S activities; having trouble processing the data (like physical stuff), but nevertheless be more willing to keep trying; or at least find some other way to handle S data.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  3. #123
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I was diagnosed with aspergers when I was 9. One of two things happened 1. I outgrew it, or 2. It was wrong. My therapist feels that I have several aspects of it, and if I do have it, it's extremely well managed. The similarities are with how I process emotions and how I feel them (it's atypical from most). When I was a kid I was a social idiot in many ways. I did not see or get many social cues or rules.
    I'd be curious to hear how you process and feel emotions.

  4. #124
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Not getting social cues could be related to having Fi-tert or inferior as a kid...i.e. Fe being one of your weakest (7th or 8th) function... your conscious self at that time may be literally blind to it or unable to capture and process Fe layer...

    That may mean you were an xxTJ as a kid then developed an xxTP outer self (i.e. persona) to be able to interact with the world...

    Your curent hopes and desires may shed more light on that...
    No I was actually really Fe as a child. Just because I was socially daft with things, didn't mean that I was robotic or had bad intentions. I'll highlight what I mean.

    When I was 8, my cousin and I were jumping on the trampoline while fireworks were going off in the backyard for the fourth of July. All I had on was a massively oversized football jersey, and as it turned out, I failed to put underwear on underneath. Eventually, it stopped and everyone started to go inside (a lot of my family was there with us). We were all being loud and having fun and at the end of it everyone was then quiet, and I was dissapointed by that. I want everyone to still have fun and be laughing, and I couldn't seem to get it going, so I thought of something funny that I could do. So, I run in front of everyone and shout "may I have your attention please!" and I lift up my jersey, and flash everyone buck naked. Everyone laughed and was like "oh god", and my mother ran forward, scooped me up, and took me inside to scold me. She said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.

    Thats kind of what I mean by socially dumb. I was a very social person, and quite friendly, I just made mistakes with it when I didn't understand the rules of engagement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'd be curious to hear how you process and feel emotions.
    It's a bit hard to describe, but I'll try. The biggest thing that happens, is how persistent they can linger. Say for example, someone were to yell at me for something I did wrong. Like, suddenly out of the blue. I didn't see it coming. You know that initial "shock" feeling you get? That will keep firing, and firing, and firing over and over again. I have to strain to not bend over and hyperventilate from that going off excessively. It's almost like it's on a tape loop and I can't get out of it. It can last for a few seconds or minutes. The aftermath of it too will persist. Sometimes, I'll be unable to get past that physical sensation of the emotion. I'm really sensitive to failure and shame, and that's what triggers it most often.

    If I fail something, that initial gut viceral feeling will hit me, and for most people it will fade (and sometimes it will fade "normally" for me too these excessive "firings" don't always happen). However, sometimes that physical feeling of the emotions will persist for hours with little fading. What makes it confusing, and sometimes worse than the initial start of it. I'll mentally work it out, and totally get it. I won't have any issues over it anymore. Yet, I'll still have that gut physical feeling of the emotion. I have no mental aspect of it anymore, but I still feel it. It's really confusing. I'll think to myself "I'm over it, why do I still feel this?! AHHH." and it can create its own stress from that alone. Because I no longer have any mental aspect of it, I can't get rid of the feeling anymore by using mental things. In effect, it will get "stuck". At worst this can last for days. It's not usually a strong physical sensation like initial shocks are, but it can keep going and going causing stress that I have no cognitive way to stop. Eventually it will go away on its own.

    In essence, my emotions will over respond sometimes, or they will separate from the mental aspect of it and become nothing more than the bodily reaction to an emotion, which is just plain confusing and stressful.

    On the flip side, this can happen with happy things too. I love it when that happens!
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  5. #125
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Being loud and having fun thing somehow suggests to me that you were an E as a kid... If you had had Fe (sensitivity to social rules, norms, feedback and gestures) as a kid, you would have been susceptible to negative Fe feedback and would have felt ashamed afterwards... So you must have been an E with no Fe, i.e. with Fi...ESFP, ENFP, ESTJ, ENTJ...as a kid...

    In your earlier video of yourself, you said nowadays you could switch of caring for anyone easily as if turning on and off a switch...This suggests your adult persona is either a Fe-tert or a Fe-inf... xxTP... which means your kid persona was a xxTJ... So your adult persona should be IxTP...

    ISTPs have Se-aux impulsiveness... you are quite calm in your video though... are you impulsive in RL...? Do you flare up and become physical with people easily?

    Does IxTP fit with your socionics typing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Yelling is Te... Te triggering anxiety in you must mean that your adult external self (persona) must be a Te-inferior... but this doesn't fit IxTP typing... IxTPs have Fe-inferior... They should theoretically be irritated by overt displays of Fe... not Te... Overt displays of Fe would be people telling you to obey social norms and criticizing you when you don't... like not caring to hold doors for people behind you, disregard or obliviousness for other people's comfort or distress, not giving up seats to the elderly in public transport etc...

  6. #126
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Being loud and having fun thing somehow suggests to me that you were an E as a kid... If you had had Fe (sensitivity to social rules, norms, feedback and gestures) as a kid, you would have been susceptible to negative Fe feedback and would have felt ashamed afterwards... So you must have been an E with no Fe, i.e. with Fi...ESFP, ENFP, ESTJ, ENTJ...as a kid...

    In your earlier video of yourself, you said nowadays you could switch of caring for anyone easily as if turning on and off a switch...This suggests your adult persona is either a Fe-tert or a Fe-inf... xxTP... which means your kid persona was a xxTJ... So your adult persona should be IxTP...

    ISTPs have Se-aux impulsiveness... you are quite calm in your video though... are you impulsive in RL...? Do you flare up and become physical with people easily?

    Does IxTP fit with your socionics typing?



    Yelling is Te... Te triggering anxiety in you must mean that your adult external self (persona) must be a Te-inferior... but this doesn't fit IxTP typing... IxTPs have Fe-inferior... They should theoretically be irritated by overt displays of Fe... not Te... Overt displays of Fe would be people telling you to obey social norms and criticizing you when you don't... like not caring to hold doors for people behind you, disregard or obliviousness for other people's comfort or distress, not giving up seats to the elderly in public transport etc...
    HAHAHA! The idea that I am a P type is completely laughable. Nope, it's not even remotely possible.

    Much of what you're explaining is stereotypes. I was, and am sensitive to social feedback. I DID feel bad after that happened. Just because I didn't understand it doesn't mean that I didn't feel guilt from it. I felt shitty that I made a mistake that I had no idea was one. Those kinds of things kill me.

    Yeah I can turn things on and off, but not everything. It has to be justifyable and I need to be sure it's rational for me to do so. If it's not, I can't do it.

    I am definitely a Je dominant.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  7. #127
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    HAHAHA! The idea that I am a P type is completely laughable. Nope, it's not even remotely possible.

    Much of what you're explaining is stereotypes. I was, and am sensitive to social feedback. I DID feel bad after that happened. Just because I didn't understand it doesn't mean that I didn't feel guilt from it. I felt shitty that I made a mistake that I had no idea was one. Those kinds of things kill me.
    Sorry but what you write above is not evident in what you had written before below...?

    he said "you can't do that! That's innappropriate!". To this day, I still remember staring at her blank faced confused. I didn't get it, I was unable to see how what I did was wrong. It didn't compute in my head. I kept asking her why, and every time she reexplained it I just didn't "get it", all I could do was just suck it in that people disliked it, and I couldn't do that, even if it didn't make a lick of sense.
    Yeah I can turn things on and off, but not everything. It has to be justifyable and I need to be sure it's rational for me to do so. If it's not, I can't do it.

    I am definitely a Je dominant.
    ^This also is not mentioned in the video... Your descriptions of yourself feel inconclusive to me..

    A Je dominant's self worth is predominantly tied to external feedback on how he\she stands as a person in the society wrt others... A Fe-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the social framework (like how a good person he\she is) whereas a Te-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the utilitarian framework...i.e. that he's a high achiever\doer...

    There's something I wonder, do Fe and Te frameworks have to be on a vertical plane, i.e. has there to be a vertical hierarchy between people in terms of their perceived Fe or Te value...? Do Fe and Te-dom feel compelled to measuring themselves (their worth\status) against others?

    My understanding of Fe (aux) strives and desires for a framework that is organized more on a lateral\parallel plane...where people could exist more or less with same Fe value...

    Is this the same for Te (aux)...?

  8. #128
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Sorry but what you write above is not evident in what you had written before below...?

    ^This also is not mentioned in the video... Your descriptions of yourself feel inconclusive to me..

    A Je dominant's self worth is predominantly tied to external feedback on how he\she stands as a person in the society wrt others... A Fe-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the social framework (like how a good person he\she is) whereas a Te-dom would need to get constant feedback from others that he\she's highly regarded in the utilitarian framework...i.e. that he's a high achiever\doer...

    There's something I wonder, do Fe and Te frameworks have to be on a vertical plane, i.e. has there to be a vertical hierarchy between people in terms of their perceived Fe or Te value...? Do Fe and Te-dom feel compelled to measuring themselves (their worth\status) against others?

    My understanding of Fe (aux) strives and desires for a framework that is organized more on a lateral\parallel plane...where people could exist more or less with same Fe value...

    Is this the same for Te (aux)...?
    You say

    Your descriptions of yourself feel inconclusive to me..
    Ok, but that doesn't mean you're right. There isn't any way possible for me to not be a J. Je dominant or secondary, yeah there might be some arguments there between the two, but I strongly lean to Je dom. But me being a P; nope, that's wrong.

    My self worth IS predominately tied to external feedback. It's actually a huge part of me and a big stress point a lot of the time. That said, you're using stereotypes (again) to try and bolster the argument, and that's not how it all is. For the record though, I do need to feel like I am well regarded by others, useful, competent, regarded, and efficient. If I don't my self-worth and self-opinion goes down the tube. But I am not like that in every single situation. No Je dom would be.

    You really need to avoid going off function sterotypes, it can lead you astray fast.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  9. #129
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Ok, but that doesn't mean you're right. There isn't any way possible for me to not be a J. Je dominant or secondary, yeah there might be some arguments there between the two, but I strongly lean to Je dom. But me being a P; nope, that's wrong.

    My self worth IS predominately tied to external feedback. It's actually a huge part of me and a big stress point a lot of the time. That said, you're using stereotypes (again) to try and bolster the argument, and that's not how it all is. For the record though, I do need to feel like I am well regarded by others, useful, competent, regarded, and efficient. If I don't my self-worth and self-opinion goes down the tube. But I am not like that in every single situation. No Je dom would be.

    You really need to avoid going off function sterotypes, it can lead you astray fast.
    Agreed...but I am using my own understanding of the functions...not necessarily stereotypes...

    The bolded is not Fe... but more like Te... Fe would be more like to be seen as "revered, helpful, honest, caring" etc...more moralistic values, societal values...

  10. #130
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Agreed...but I am using my own understanding of the functions...not necessarily stereotypes...

    The bolded is not Fe... but more like Te... Fe would be more like to be seen as "revered, helpful, honest, caring" etc...more moralistic values, societal values...
    I understand that. I know I appear Te, but I am not a Te dominant (I WISH I was). It wouldn't be the first time I was called a T user and not an F user. Curiously, it seems like every time that this happens it's an F user claiming it.

    You're understanding of the function is not clear enough to declare this about me.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


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