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  1. #11
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    i dont believe it that easily. mbti is system made based on jungs theories and i wouldnt trust that Isabel Briggs Myers knows every reason for everything about jungs theories and if she is making her own theories on something that she doesent know every single reason for everything why jung decided to set types as he did, she could easily make small mistakes on little things like this if type is set but types can work in other ways or if type is not set and that why people working in different ways. i mean jung cant possibly reason everything(and i mean totally everything, like what thing triggered an intuition about something that made me think about this that led me think about this which led me to this conclusion about something, not to mention how it all comes together) in his books that isabel made her theories from. not to mention that since these are all theories and my theory makes more sense to me i can easily disregard bits on someone elses theory. theory based on another theory can really easily go wrong on some things on reality, my whole thinking is based on making theories about everything, and im more sceptic about theories of theory that i made myself, this is why im being more sceptic about mbti than jung

    do you happen to know what jung said about this? not that i would think that he must be correct since its also an theory, but i would find it easier to believe from him. maybe even coincider it to the point that i would try to look reasons behind it so that i could believe it.
    I don't think there is any point even researching Jung's position given that you believe your own take on this is the only correct answer. I withdraw from this discussion with you INTP as you appear to be responding with an underdeveloped Fe which defies the Rational. I have to say I expected better from a fellow INTP.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  2. #12
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I don't think there is any point even researching Jung's position given that you believe your own take on this is the only correct answer. I withdraw from this discussion with you INTP as you appear to be responding with an underdeveloped Fe which defies the Rational. I have to say I expected better from a fellow INTP.
    its not about Fe, its that i see a clear reason why that is making sense that the functions are set to one order, but the strength of the functions isnt set and can vary. only argument against this is that soemone else thinks differently. you need to reason why i am wrong if you want to change my opinion about it. I would like you to give me reasons why i am wrong, but i dont think that is possible since i doubt that isabel has even written those reason anywhere, if she even has real reasons for that..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #13
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    I can't relate to any of it.

  4. #14
    Senior Member InsatiableCuriosity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    its not about Fe, its that i see a clear reason why that is making sense that the functions are set to one order, but the strength of the functions isnt set and can vary. only argument against this is that soemone else thinks differently. you need to reason why i am wrong if you want to change my opinion about it. I would like you to give me reasons why i am wrong, but i dont think that is possible since i doubt that isabel has even written those reason anywhere, if she even has real reasons for that..
    You poor deluded person. The MBTI Manual is the training Manual for MBTI practitioners. Its subtitle is A Guide to the Development and Use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

    For any trained MBTI Administrator it is the foundation guide most referred to and contains the history, the theory, the research, statistical distribution, and guide to interpreting results and more. I suggest you go and do a bit of your own research before you make any more silly sweeping statements and make yourself look even more foolish.
    "Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent and original manner possible."
    — Richard P. Feynman

    "Never tell a person a thing is impossible. G*d/the Universe may have been waiting all this time for someone ignorant enough of the impossibility to do just that thing."
    author unknown

  5. #15
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    You poor deluded person. The MBTI Manual is the training Manual for MBTI practitioners. Its subtitle is A Guide to the Development and Use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

    For any trained MBTI Administrator it is the foundation guide most referred to and contains the history, the theory, the research, statistical distribution, and guide to interpreting results and more. I suggest you go and do a bit of your own research before you make any more silly sweeping statements and make yourself look even more foolish.
    im not interested what the book is that what you quoted from

    im looking for a reasoning behind that part of the theory of isabels..
    i think you(or people in general) should be able to reason why you think something is correct before you believe that it is correct or you are a fool, especially if you hear two opposing theories about what is the truth.

    can you even explain why my reasoning for this is incorrect? or are you just saying that i am wrong because someone else told you differently? you know this isnt something that would make rest of the mbti theory invalid, so isabel might easily be wrong on this since both ways of thinking this leads to pretty much same conclusion..

    are you sure that you really are an intp?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #16
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    The problem with function roles is that one can bend functions to match the roles as they apply to his/her own life if they try hard enough. Just like any of the more detailed aspects of MBTI, you sort of have to ask how exactly the function roles have been validated.. or at least what the rationale behind them is.

    Same is true with the nitty-gritty of any of these theories. For those who are familiar with Socionics, people give a lot of weight to the types' "hidden agendas," a three-word phrase for each type's 'longing,' which pretty much came from one blog post on one website. Oh, and without any rationale behind them whatsoever. People then try to use these hidden agendas to explain things about their deepest motivations. Once the hidden agendas are seen as total bollocks, though, everything that's based upon them comes crashing down.

    So uh I guess what I'm saying is to try not to base too much on things that have little rationale, as your whole way of thinking will fall once your fundamental assumptions are no longer seen as valid.



    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I withdraw from this discussion with you INTP as you appear to be responding with an underdeveloped Fe which defies the Rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    are you sure that you really are an intp?
    you guys are hilarious.. never stop, please

  7. #17
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    Quote:
    The Leading Role (Dominant) (sometimes referred to as the 1st function)
    The process that plays the leading role is the one that usually develops early in childhood. We tend to engage in this process first, trusting it to solve our problems and help us be successful. Being the most trusted and most used, it usually has an adult, mature quality to it. While we are likely to engage in it rather automatically and effortlessly, we have much more conscious control over it. The energy cost for using it is very low. Much like in the movies, the leading role has a heroic quality as using it can get us out of difficult situations. However, we can sometimes “turn up the volume” on this process and become overbearing and domineering. Then it takes on a negative dominating quality.
    Ti is my dominant function. It is what I use to solve problems. It doesnt think outside the box, nor does it create. It does logical analysis. It deems what makes logical sense and what doesnt. It is my bread and butter. Its what I argue with, when I crank it up I can and will thouroughly frustrate people. Aside from what most think about "logic" and right. When I crank it up I will create logical loops where the end leads back to the begining. These create "apparent" closed logical systems.



    Quote:
    The Supporting Role (Auxiliary) (sometimes referred to as the 2nd function)
    The supporting role is how we are helpful to others as well as supportive of ourselves. Once we have developed some facility with our leading role process, we are more likely to feel comfortable engaging in our supporting role process. In its most positive form, this can be quite like a nurturing parent. In its more negative aspect, it can be overprotective and stunting rather than helpful. When the leading role process is an extraverted one, the supporting role process is introverted. When the leading role process is an introverted one, the supporting role process is extraverted and may be quite active and visible as it provides a way of dealing with the outer world.
    Se is my auxilary function. Its my busy body mode, my "do" mode. It makes no decisions, it doesnt dig deep. It just does. I use this when playing games as I dont analyse, I have no aim. I just do. There is not always a rhyme or reason. It says just keep pushing forward keep moving. I basically just respond to whats around me with very shallow reasons and understanding. Its my driving, its my jet skiing. There are no paths, I just respond. When in this mode I can stumble gracefully like a drunk, running down a rocky hill fast my wife said it looked like I was dancing with the rocks. I need no music, I need nothing but movement to respond to. It has no path, it has no judgement, it is shallow, it is relaxing though it may be physically exhausting. I use this when I help people, its my actions and I my physical limits are the only thing that keep me from going forever.

    The Relief Role (Tertiary) (sometimes referred to as the 3rd function)
    The relief role gives us a way to energize and recharge ourselves. It serves as a backup to the supporting role and often works in tandem with it. When we are younger, we might not engage in the process that plays this role very much unless our life circumstances require it or make it hard to use the supporting role process. Usually, in young adulthood we are attracted to activities that draw upon this process. The relief role often is how we express our creativity. It is how we are playful and childlike. In its most negative expression, this is how we become childish. Then it has an unsettling quality, and we can use this process to distract ourselves and others, getting us off target.
    This is my Ni. It is like my trickster, my joking, my creativity. I take concepts and play with them, joke with them. This is one function that I connect with my wife as I will start laughing at something and my wife knows exactly where I went with it. Its like Se, but in my head. Its mentally shifting and dancing with concepts, jumping from one to the other. Give me a dirty joke book and get my mind in this process and I become very childish mentally shifting everything over. I can do this people as well once I get to know them and find out what they think is funny. Sometimes the things work other times they dont. Its very intuitive, very instantaneous.

    Quote:
    The Aspirational Role (Inferior) (sometimes referred to as the 4th function)
    The aspirational role usually doesn’t develop until around midlife. We often experience it first in its negative aspect of projecting our “shoulds,” fears, and negativities onto others. The qualities of these fears reflect the process that plays this role, and we are more likely to look immature when we engage in the process that plays this role. There is often a fairly high energy cost for using it—even when we acquire the skill to do so. As we learn to trust it and develop it, the aspirational role process provides a bridge to balance in our lives. Often our sense of purpose, inspiration, and ideals have the qualities of the process that plays this role.



    Quote:
    The Opposing Role (sometimes referred to as the 5th function)
    The opposing role is often how we get stubborn and argumentative—refusing to “play” and join in whatever is going on at the time. It might be easy for us to develop skill in the process that plays this role, but we are likely to be more narrow in our application of this skill, and it will likely take more energy to use it extensively. In its positive aspect, it provides a shadow or depth to our leading role process, backing it up and enabling us to be more persistent in pursuit of our goals.
    Te drives me nuts. Its a huge struggle for me internally. Its boring, its unmotivational, its confining, but I can see the value. I can see why we need this external organization and it frustrates me to no end. Its rules, schedules, organization and its forced upon people by the mere fact that its "common". Its based on majority and its logical. It goes against those who want to expand past "common", its a constant fight for me. Its one sided, but I can see that side, I can see the reasoning. Its something I apply to myself as a limit and it drives me nuts for others to force these limits upon me as I hate that I cannot get past the logical reasoning myself. My dad recently said I was funny because he finally could see my internal struggle with Te as I explained the Te side to someone else. I understand its logic, I understand its purpose, its reasoning, but I hate how its confining, restrictive, and feels controlling because I cant get past it logically.



    Quote:
    The Critical Parent Role (sometimes referred to as the 6th function)
    The critical parent role is how we find weak spots and can immobilize and demoralize others. We can also feel this way when others use the process that plays this role. It is often used sporadically and emerges more often under stressful conditions when something important is at risk. When we engage it, we can go on and on. To access its positive side of discovery, we must learn to appreciate and be open to it. Then it has an almost magical quality and can provide a profound sense of wisdom.
    This is "the" detail. It truly comes across as magical and profound. It can demobilize and demoralize others. I am learning how to use this outside of stress and to access the "magical" qualities. Its focus.


    Quote:
    The Deceiving Role (sometimes referred to as the 7th function)
    The deceiving role fools us into thinking something is important to do or pay attention to. The process that fills this role is often not trusted or seen as worthy of attention, for when we do engage it, we may make mistakes in perception or in decision making. Then we feel double bound—trapped between two bad options. Yet this role can have a positive side as it provides comic relief. Then we can laugh at ourselves. It can be refreshing and join with the relief role as we recharge ourselves through play.
    Ne. This is my what-if, its part of my processing of "what if this happened". Its like an internal gateway to what hasnt or didnt happen. I dont trust it and I dont really deem it worthy of attention because I truly dont know "if it is" or "if it was". I can then laugh and joke about what goes through my mind as I move past these.

    Quote:
    The Devilish Role (sometimes referred to as the 8th function)
    The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness.
    Fi. I struggle with this function at times. When it gets triggered I fight my hardest to control it. The hardest time I have controling it is when I feel like I am being controlled through Te. My wife knows this within me, she doesnt fear me, but she fears my actions when I hit this devilish role. I dont know yet how to make lemonade out of this sourness. It just erupts uncontrolled. Stay back, I will look for some where to explode away from people, I will push myself further and harder then I ever have. Its an adrenaline rush that erupts into Se. Were talking 360s at 50-60 MPH on my jet ski, killing the engine because so much water gets forced backwards through the jet while I am at full throttle. Fear disappears, the only thing I account for is the safety of others, not myself.



    edit: forgot Fe, working on it
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    The problem with function roles is that one can bend functions to match the roles as they apply to his/her own life if they try hard enough. Just like any of the more detailed aspects of MBTI, you sort of have to ask how exactly the function roles have been validated.. or at least what the rationale behind them is.

    Same is true with the nitty-gritty of any of these theories. For those who are familiar with Socionics, people give a lot of weight to the types' "hidden agendas," a three-word phrase for each type's 'longing,' which pretty much came from one blog post on one website. Oh, and without any rationale behind them whatsoever. People then try to use these hidden agendas to explain things about their deepest motivations. Once the hidden agendas are seen as total bollocks, though, everything that's based upon them comes crashing down.

    So uh I guess what I'm saying is to try not to base too much on things that have little rationale, as your whole way of thinking will fall once your fundamental assumptions are no longer seen as valid.
    Yeah. Typical pitfall in conversations like this.

    you guys are hilarious.. never stop, please
    It's definitely incredible to watch.
    (Then again, I have a sparring partner or two around here myself.)

    * * * * *

    My functions are a little off the beaten path.

    Ti
    Ne / Ni
    ______
    Fe
    Si
    ______
    Fi
    Se / Te

    (or something like that).
    I've also marked where there are large spaces in the clustering.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Do people really think we are built in that way? What are we, factory made?
    6th function role? WTH?

    Dont delude yourself this much. Like some psychotherapist say, it's often the case; "analysis is paralisis"!

    to not be completely off topic, this is how i score:
    Ne Fi Fe Ni...
    I believe in NeFiTeSi being my first 4 functions, but looking at 7th,8th and what is their role, seems like having a belief and then finding any kind of evidence for that, you will always be able to prove that your Se is your 8th function, and then you'll also be able to prove Ti is, or Fe... its just seems delusional.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloé View Post
    Do people really think we are built in that way? What are we, factory made?
    6th function role? WTH?

    Dont delude yourself this much. Like some psychotherapist say, it's often the case; "analysis is paralisis"!
    Honestly thats where I was stuck and thats what this stuff and the people in here along with everday people in my life outside of here helped me get past.
    Im out, its been fun

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