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  1. #31
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why do we hold Jung's work as truth, the gold standard? At a certain point in time, we may chuck it out the window as total bupkus ... (No offense intended and sorry if that sounds irreverent; I just see the argument "They have strayed from Jung's work / intention" as a weak form of counter-argument to invalidate MBTI etc. from time to time.)

    example above from Eric's post: "People like Lenore probably think that MBTI and others' use of of the concepts are often flawed by virtue of straying from their Jungian moorings."
    I'm not totally bound to Jung like that, but sometimes, if you're going to use the person's concepts, it is better to keep it in line with the underlying framework. When you begin removing things out of the author's original contexts, you may create a lot of confusion. Yes, we can do this at times, but you have to be really careful with it.

    Prime example is treating the functions as behaviors and dividing between e/i function attitude too much, and then using these behaviors as solid indicators of type. (Lenore suggested that this was the influence of temperament theory, and temperament focuses more on "affective' behavior). Again, this leads to the problem of types not fitting because one thinks they "use" the wrong functions too much.
    In Jung's conception, there were four functions, and the orientation was really distinct in itself. When I realized this, then it became easy to understand things such as the Tertiary being either/or orientation, and how the shadows work.
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  2. #32
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Very creative OP!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #33
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    True. To me it's still unbelieveable to grasp and understand the magic of mbti and where it is coming from. This means, it wasnt impossible to understand disorders or normal personality traits before mbti, but with mbti now seemingly everything falls magically in place and makes a logical sense and can even be connected to each other to form a coherent whole.

    I am still suspicious about it, the theory of autosuggestion is for me the strongest enemy of mbti theory there is; therefore I'ld like to embrace the mbti theory or theories around it, but it still just feels wrong to me and I'ld be afraid if the only thing I could define a person about would be: yeah he is Fi or Te and so on.

    To not give mbti to much discredit, its descriptions of the functions enabled me to widen my perception of people and give me new ideas about them and I think that's what they are intended to be; so you just have to watch that you understand the theory itself and not get caught up on its formulations, but what still intrests me is how mankind coped with those things before mbti. And I am more and more conviced that they didnt at all.
    I think you are totally correct, I like the functions a lot...(jag calls me Ms. Boxy!)

    but Jung didnt stay here...he kept moving past it, which says it isnt the end all of everything...there are some other layers...there is a lot more complexity.

    I think the functions are kinda neat Ti/Te things to play with...but once you add in Fe and Fi to filter data from the world, you can see amazing shades of grey that permeate everything and everyone. So if you take a person and plug them into a jungian functional pattern, it is like taking a high res image, compressing it, then blowing it back up again... you lose a lot of data. Sometimes this is okay, but sometimes not.

    The Ni doms are seeing some other stuff too that I dont understand....

    Mankind I think coped using mutual projections.

    Jung said we all endlessly project our own understanding/perception/judgment of the world onto others. We assume they are thinking what we are thinking, so the misunderstandings never crop up as nobody ever dissects them to the level we do here. When misunderstandings crop up, we assume the other is behaving in an intentionally bad way and just label them and walk away.

    Mostly...well...mostly people arent evil (except for this girl INTP i know. pure evil.). They are acting out their pattern...which conflicts with our pattern. We then assume that the other person thinks like us, thus must be motivated like us, thus must be acting with ill intent or selfishness or something else to be doing what they are doing. "Why else would they be behaving that way? I would never behave that way."

    But these are just my thoughts.....but I would love to see this stuff help people if it could....(thats what motivates enfps...)

  4. #34
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Yeah; I forgot exactly what your position on her was. But sorry; just giving credit where it's due.
    She may not have those credentials, but she has tried to be truer to Jung, the author of these concepts, moreso than many others who have moved the theory off of its moorings.
    She is not true to Jung when she refers to a "J or P worldview." Jung didn't even create the J/P. Myers did. Lenore is so busy cramming pop culture into her work, I can't help but wonder if she was beamed up with Captain Kirk and Scotty.

    No one I have referenced makes the inferior out to be any "demon child".
    Lenore is no fan of the inferior, Eric. The woman's approach is paranoid. I can't help but wonder if she thinks the Illuminati are out to get her. Only in this case, the Illuminati is the inferior function. It's "subversive" and it "siphons off," as if to suggest we have a deceitful CIA vampire lurking within us all - sucking our skulls dry, while we sleep.

    As for turning those "loops" into "personality disorders"; I haven't really bought into that
    That's wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I like the functions a lot...(jag calls me Ms. Boxy!)
    Calling you Ms. Boxy, has nothing to do with liking functions. Lol.

  5. #35
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I think you are totally correct, I like the functions a lot...(jag calls me Ms. Boxy!)

    but Jung didnt stay here...he kept moving past it, which says it isnt the end all of everything...there are some other layers...there is a lot more complexity.

    I think the functions are kinda neat Ti/Te things to play with...but once you add in Fe and Fi to filter data from the world, you can see amazing shades of grey that permeate everything and everyone. So if you take a person and plug them into a jungian functional pattern, it is like taking a high res image, compressing it, then blowing it back up again... you lose a lot of data. Sometimes this is okay, but sometimes not.

    The Ni doms are seeing some other stuff too that I dont understand....

    Mankind I think coped using mutual projections.

    Jung said we all endlessly project our own understanding/perception/judgment of the world onto others. We assume they are thinking what we are thinking, so the misunderstandings never crop up as nobody ever dissects them to the level we do here. When misunderstandings crop up, we assume the other is behaving in an intentionally bad way and just label them and walk away.

    Mostly...well...mostly people arent evil (except for this girl INTP i know. pure evil.). They are acting out their pattern...which conflicts with our pattern. We then assume that the other person thinks like us, thus must be motivated like us, thus must be acting with ill intent or selfishness or something else to be doing what they are doing. "Why else would they be behaving that way? I would never behave that way."

    But these are just my thoughts.....but I would love to see this stuff help people if it could....(thats what motivates enfps...)


    To do know a very un-entpish thing: you're right. Normally I now had to keep the position on which side I switched and defend it, but tho I could find some arguements, after thinking about it, youi are definitly right.

    If you see the functions like your entry fee to the cosmic circus that lies behind that, then mbti is indeed a good thing. I have no clue what my self-conscience would be at today, if I hadnt been presented the mbti ideas about how different people could approach life. I very early sensed a difference between more people oriented people and more factual oriented people, but to add a thing like abstract thinking, which mbti defines via Intuition, this idea I'ld have had probably very late in my own studies and a lot of things wouldnt have made sense until then.

    To me it has always been impossible to understand other people in any way at all. I am good at reflecting the emotions they show or recognizing recurring patterns in behaviour I can then associate to a somewhat understanding of a person, to get along with said person very good on a friend basis but I was never able to really deeply understand a human being or to even see what made this human being.

    After I met my girlfriend, of whom I think she is infj, I was presented an outstanding knowledge of the human nature. She like looks a person ion the face and she can tell you the whole persons story. It's amazing and the most amazing thing about it is it works in reality for her on a daily basis and she doesnt even recognize it as a talent. So this is like active applied sciences and not only grey theory like mbti.

    But: when I confronted her with mbti, she thought of it as bullshit. This deeply alienated me from mbti theory, cause I've seen her talent and if a capable person makes the call, I trust her. So I ran through the world typing everything and noone really understood wtf I'm talking about really.

    So, and I think this is an insight I just had lately and which first came when my mind gave up on categorically trieing to systematize the whole world with mbti terms ( and it just gave up cause some really illogical inconsiestencies came up, like people who didnt really fit into the system or me being unsure on a daily basis, am I ass-kicking entj now or rather confused coffee-drinking entp or whatever).... the insight: I got stuck at the entry, what mbti provided and not more.

    Since I've settled down and thought about the character traits the functions want to show, I got to know them better and learned what they mean. Now I am able to even unconciously assert situations where you cope with people better, cause I do understand them better. I gained a new set of perception on people from mbti.

    And since that is possible for me and I dont talk in mumbojumbo mbti terms to my girlfriend, she perfectly understands what I am talking about. So the real thing mbti lacked was me interpreting it and dealing with it right.

    It's still until today a flawed logical system to me, but as I said above it doesnt want to be seen as a logical system, cause its static approach can never really grasp human dynamics, just give a new perception on things. That's a thing I failed to understand and until today I still want to be something like a 100% entp or 100% entj, tho this is completly ridicoulus.

    I for myself am thankful for mbti, it personally helped me to gain much much more understanding about people that I would never have been able to acquire in such short time. Nevertheless, to speak in mbti terms, I have dedicated my Ti now back to what its good for, which is tending the old car so it doesnt break forever and the new insights from mbti will be used in the occasional Fe moments, when you want to "filter data from the world, to see amazing shades of grey that permeate everything and everyone".

    I have no clue why I said all this, since everyone went to holidays in the office and my girlfriend got to learn for the exams and we have no budgies, I need to tell that to someone at times
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #36
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    She is not true to Jung when she refers to a "J or P worldview." Jung didn't even create the J/P. Myers did. Lenore is so busy cramming pop culture into her work, I can't help but wonder if she was beamed up with Captain Kirk and Scotty.
    She's obviously dealing with the theory as it has come down through Myers. I never said she rejected MBTI.
    And that sounds like the book you're referencing. She seems to have become a bit more Jungian in outlook since writing that, and said she would change things in it if she could.
    Lenore is no fan of the inferior, Eric. The woman's approach is paranoid. I can't help but wonder if she thinks the Illuminati are out to get her. Only in this case, the Illuminati is the inferior function. It's "subversive" and it "siphons off," as if to suggest we have a deceitful CIA vampire lurking within us all - sucking our skulls dry, while we sleep.
    I don't know what on earth you're talking about. I have never gathered anything like that from her. She makes it the "troublemaker" in the book, which is thrown off the ship and then begins pulling the ship inland. While that may sound a bit more negative than other people's descriptions; all it is conveying is the rejected role of the inferior in the ego of a person who has not reached maturity yet. And face it, in the older theory (this was before she began to address Beebe's extended model), the inferior was considered "the shadow", and carried a lot of negative connotations.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Shit, am I a faint case of Borderline Personality Disorder?!


    lol, I'm just kidding.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Just to drag up a completelyoff-topic opinion from the main discussion.

    Am I the only one that sees benefit in having developed in such a way that my auxillary wasn't capable of handling the situation so instead I relied much on Ti-esqe thinking.

  9. #39
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Just to drag up a completelyoff-topic opinion from the main discussion.

    Am I the only one that sees benefit in having developed in such a way that my auxillary wasn't capable of handling the situation so instead I relied much on Ti-esqe thinking.
    I see it as well (at this point my functions are so well-balanced that my inferior now has the relative strength expected from an auxiliary). It's worth noting though that Sim's theory is that severely imbalanced dom-tertiary loops can cause mental disorders (or possibly be caused by them), not that one necessarily leads to the other.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Just to drag up a completelyoff-topic opinion from the main discussion.

    Am I the only one that sees benefit in having developed in such a way that my auxillary wasn't capable of handling the situation so instead I relied much on Ti-esqe thinking.
    It seems this could be very beneficial. The goal may be decided upon by the aux function...but the analysis is done by the tert function.

    In each case there are flaws in the dom-tert perception-analysis that have to be gut checked by the aux function....or externally.

    But at the same time, by combining the dom-tert functions, you are temporarily creating a whole new way of perceiving-judging the world-which offers information that no other combination of functions CAN provide.

    examples:
    I see this pattern a lot in ISFJ men...(Not sure if you are a guy or girl ) It has helped some of them move into director and VP positions in my company. They "feel" very much like kind ISTJs and seem to be very good mentors. The only weak point is a possible SiTi loop...they are weak in Te logistics, and will choose to ignore new information that doesnt agree with previous Si models. They can also face communication issues with Te doms. The ISFJs are so good at adapting the message so that the auidence feels Fe harmony, thus the Te dom ends up being too obtuse given the softness of the message to catch onto the severity of the problem. SiTi?

    I also see it in INFJ men as well and in INFJ women in science. INFJs make great scientists and tech writers for this reason-being able to tap into their tert function for logical analysis. NiTi? Very little Fe needed.

    I see ENFPs in strategic marketing, executive management, engineering, physics, and so on. NeTe? an Fi goal, but Te analysis. Or Te developed as an Fi value of logic.

    ENTPs who excel in sales, training, marketing, executive management, project management. NeFe? a Ti system but a very authentic Fe.

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