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  1. #21
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Eric, can you clarify what exactly you mean when you say "product" vs archetypical example?
    That was Lenore's way of putting it [he asked, Jag!], and from the contexts, it would mean the behaviors or skills we have come to associate with the functions. The things we actually "use". So for Se; it would be current sensory input. Everyone uses this every minute of every day, yet we distinguish SP types as particular "Se users".
    What really is the difference between them and evey other type? With them, Se denotes a particular perspective where current senses are their preferred input method. For others, it is what is called "undifferentiated" as far as being such a specific perspective.

    So then "experiencing the current senses" then, which often is used as the definition of "Se", can be thought of as a product of the function, as distinct from a differentiated Se perspective. All people use the product; only for some is it apart of a preferred perspective that defines their type.

    Otherwise, we run on all the problems many confused about type have, where they thnk they "use" a function too much to be a certain type. Or we would wonder how NP's and SJ's could see, hear, smell, etc. or try to force those activities into an archetypal role (demon, opposing, etc).
    How can we consciously engage a function, yet still have it remain as part of a shadow? Is it that the function can oscillate between different uses at different times? (I could see this...)
    It would be these "products" we can become more aware of, and the archetype/complex perspective that lies in the shadow.

    I'm not sure that when Beebe says the 7th function develops right behind the tertiary, whether he meant the specific Trickster archetype, or just the undifferentiated function the Trickster sometimes encases. On the other hand, Lenore says the Trickster manifests only in very special cases. So I'm taking sort of a middle view.

    Can you elaborate regarding what "paying attention" to the aux function actually is for different functions? I understand what this means for Fi...but for others...
    I can give my own example: When I internalize the principles of how something works (anything in the environment), I can then lock onto it with a perspective of memory, and ignore other possibilities. That way; I maintain a purely internal outlook. Ti-Si. To allow awareness of other possibilities is to pay attention to the external auxilary perspective.
    *giggles* I might have noticed the Lennore thing as well...but I figured it was Ti hard at work. But you have very good ideas and I find your ref suggestions very helfpul. Jag I must say I do adore the tert function alert. That is hysterical.

    Eric, on this note, jag does have a good point. MBTI has some very apparent flaws. From a marketing perspective to admit your entire system has flaws would be a pretty bad move, given revenue and established if questionable pool of data. You would have to build another test, gather many more stats and data, totally re-market it and end up competing against yourself. But once past that it all becomes theoretical...so open to a lot of room for reinvention and new thought.
    I don't quite understand the point. People like Lenore probably think that MBTI and others' use of of the concepts are often flawed by virtue of straying from their Jungian moorings.

    It seems that in Ne doms, the choice to use the tert is a protective one. Why do other MBTI types develop the tert at the expense of the aux? I say "develop" as "choice" is a nonideal term.
    That's the "tertiary defense". It's to maintain the dominant perspective.
    How do other types become familiar with their complexes and help this process of evolving the unconscious into consciousness? ENFPs chew on them via internal Fi and external Te discussions...
    The complexes we often project onto others, and when you learn to recognize them in yourself, you will withdraw the projections, and become more open to the related perspectives.

    In other words, an ENFP, who sees the theory through the lens of Fi, will use it primarily for NeFi purposes, such as possible ways to understand and improve one's self. A Ti perspective which dwells on the logical frameworks for their own sake he might distrust.
    Like I had one ENFP tell me that "all the stuff about witches triggering puers is excuses for bad behavior". This in response to an explanation of a conflict using the framework of the eight-functional intertype dynamics (the stuff of Ti). The person saw it as if it were being spoken by a bad child making excuses for his mischief. This is the Trickster archetype they are seeing in someone else. However, when they react to it, they themselves might end up acting like bad children. They are projecting a complex onto others that is in their unconscious. If they stop projecting, it will more likely be brought under some conscious control.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I dont know what grudge the author of the op holds against Patrick Bateman; I mean really he is a decent guy, obviously working hard to fit in society and be an exemplary member of his race. Really that poor guy, you cant give him so less credit. Besides that he's obviously brilliant and even keeps his house clean when killing the occasional co-worker that just had better results this day than he had.

    Ok bad jokes aside... funny post
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #23
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    A few thoughts:

    Jag, I like it when you write longer posts like this. I enjoy the expansion of your POV. sim would be itching to respond, were he here.

    -----

    There are some good replies to sim's post at PC: Dominant-Tertiary Loops and Common Personality Disorders - PersonalityCafe

    -----

    Why do we hold Jung's work as truth, the gold standard? At a certain point in time, we may chuck it out the window as total bupkus ... (No offense intended and sorry if that sounds irreverent; I just see the argument "They have strayed from Jung's work / intention" as a weak form of counter-argument to invalidate MBTI etc. from time to time.)

    example above from Eric's post: "People like Lenore probably think that MBTI and others' use of of the concepts are often flawed by virtue of straying from their Jungian moorings."

    Just a thought.

    -----

    I think if sim had avoided giving his loops "names" such as "X Personality Disorder" it would have made better fodder for discussion instead of appearing definitive. He does offer a disclaimer later in the PC thread.

    -----

    Orobas, how does it feel to be a case study in one of sim's posts? LOL!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #24
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    I actually thought his ENFP example was Little Linguist.



  5. #25
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Still intresting to know why someone who has a paranoid personality disorder needs to know that he's infp and vice versa and overall of these things how it really helps him to gain anything.

    Reading up on mbti and the creation of new systems like the one in the op out of mbti strikes me like the description for paranoid personality disorder in the op.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #26
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I actually thought his ENFP example was Little Linguist.
    That would work too, wouldn't it?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #27
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    First, Eric, I will put thought into your responses. Because you lead with Ti...I often really have to work to understand you, thus a quick Ne fly over does not do your posts justice and it would be impolite to address without deep consideration of content.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Why do we hold Jung's work as truth, the gold standard? At a certain point in time, we may chuck it out the window as total bupkus ... (No offense intended and sorry if that sounds irreverent; I just see the argument "They have strayed from Jung's work / intention" as a weak form of counter-argument to invalidate MBTI etc. from time to time.)

    Orobas, how does it feel to be a case study in one of sim's posts? LOL!
    Sim got to come back yesterday! (Hmmmm, had I known I might have held off on that lawnmower eulogy by a day...)

    As for Jung and MBTI, I have started giving MBTI Type IIs and the results are honestly a clusterfuck. I am seeing a lot of tertiary and some inferior function contamination of the results...on Type II it is very obvious this happens as the subscales will be skewed.

    Jung....well Jung found the nexus? the pivot point of the problem? Someone suggested he might actually have been NiTi, oddly, on another site....

    I must say, to see me being used as a case study initially provoked a slight Fi defensive reaction for about 3 seconds. REALLY? Then I thought it was funny as hell! Sim is cute and adorable in a pissy baby punk entp way. Last year it would have hurt my feelings though as I was much less secure in my self understanding.

    My next response was frustration at his model due to the errors and I felt a need to start poking at the broken parts-he TOTALLY missed how important Si is and how the (aux-inf) do not co-develop. That's the coolest part!!! (learned from Kalach the INTJ by the way.)

    Funny, I suggest his button pushing is him building a TiSi library....but he missed how he has a separate FeSi library that says quit pushing buttons.

    It is an interesting Ti/Te case study as I posted the enfp/bpd and entp npd stuff last March in a blog based on things I had directly observed, but never felt comfortable extending as I did not have Te evidence to support moving to other functional types. Thus my Te stopped where my Si stopped. Sim actually takes and extends the idea across all types as an NeTi construct. It REALLY makes me wary as I have not seen those other personality types and have no Si data to support his NeTi construct, so I cant trust it based upon my own internal perception/judging.....but must trust his instead.

    Is this the human condition? I will never have Se, thus I must learn to find Se users I can trust? and so on down the functions....

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I actually thought his ENFP example was Little Linguist.
    Hmmm, well lots of enfps show up with this exact same question here. In the real world we are forced to hide our Fi or get mauled by the Ti/Fe users of all varieties. We adapt Fi in many ways to do this. But the end diversity you see in ENFPs still argues the model he proposed. (That's my way of saying, shit did I Ne into this one....hehehe, maybe...)



    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Still intresting to know why someone who has a paranoid personality disorder needs to know that he's infp and vice versa and overall of these things how it really helps him to gain anything.

    Reading up on mbti and the creation of new systems like the one in the op out of mbti strikes me like the description for paranoid personality disorder in the op.
    I'd say if there was meat to this idea, it might give some hope to BPD and NPD folks-a treatment path, thus while I do agree with Jag that functions are not everything, understanding what functions may be in play can help in understanding a path for this illnesses, both which are terribly devastating to the people who have them and those around them. Right now the advice is "Run away from them."

  8. #28
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I'd say if there was meat to this idea, it might give some hope to BPD and NPD folks-a treatment path, thus while I do agree with Jag that functions are not everything, understanding what functions may be in play can help in understanding a path for this illnesses, both which are terribly devastating to the people who have them and those around them. Right now the advice is "Run away from them."
    True. To me it's still unbelieveable to grasp and understand the magic of mbti and where it is coming from. This means, it wasnt impossible to understand disorders or normal personality traits before mbti, but with mbti now seemingly everything falls magically in place and makes a logical sense and can even be connected to each other to form a coherent whole.

    I am still suspicious about it, the theory of autosuggestion is for me the strongest enemy of mbti theory there is; therefore I'ld like to embrace the mbti theory or theories around it, but it still just feels wrong to me and I'ld be afraid if the only thing I could define a person about would be: yeah he is Fi or Te and so on.

    To not give mbti to much discredit, its descriptions of the functions enabled me to widen my perception of people and give me new ideas about them and I think that's what they are intended to be; so you just have to watch that you understand the theory itself and not get caught up on its formulations, but what still intrests me is how mankind coped with those things before mbti. And I am more and more conviced that they didnt at all.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  9. #29
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Could specific dom-tert loops correspond to specific mental issues?

    I used to know an ENTP narcist. Now with hindsight I would associate it to Ne-Fe...

    Ne: Ideasideasideas!
    Fe: I need praise for them!
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  10. #30
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    so we're talking order and not strength here... and then strengths got thrown in as well?

    I have a freakish strength order, with a few of my bottom 4 functions being stronger than some of my top 4 functions... especially my truly shitty inferior
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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