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  1. #11
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I think it's unfortunate that of all the things a person could choose to create as a thread, someone chose a topic to make people feel badly about themselves, as if to suggest they are somehow unhealthy or broken. Meanwhile, they are merely developing their functions at different rates, and ages, as healthy and quite normal individuals. Just because people develop their functions at different rates, doesn't mean they have a personality disorder. As a person who holds a degree in psychology, I find this thread potentially destructive in nature.

    I think we can all do better than this. Jung's goal was to become a whole individual -by establishing a healthy dialogue between the conscious and unconscious parts of ourselves. Suggesting people have personality disorders serves no one, nor fosters any type of beneficial growth for us as individuals, and society as a whole.

    And to Orobas, no one knows for certain what functions you are using at any given moment in time. For someone to claim they know, would be as ridiculous as claiming which neurotransmitters were most active in your brain at a given moment, and in what quantities. That of course would be preposterous. But if they try to tell you, check to see if they are doing it with a crystal ball.
    hehe! yeah, I think there are some folks who really do suffer, and I believe personality disorders are very real, and heck maybe you could build models and such...but my Fi says that once done Ti-ing or Te-ing you have taken a real reductionist approach to the problem.

    I see a summed unique person who takes all the functions, aspects of the shadow, temporal influences, life and family and then morphs to become something special and unique. I suspect that by mid life or greater we are all starting to tap into our other functions and our combining functions to create new ways of analyzing and processing the world-just like Jung said we would. So even the Jungian functions may not be enough...I dunno..always seeing possibilities I suppose

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    An ENFP can be represented as:

    Ne
    Fi
    T
    Si

    And in many of the publications from CAPT, (found at capt.org) that is in fact, how it is represented. The reason there is no attitude listed for the Tertiary, is it has been in dispute for decades. It has also been commonly theorized that a person has flexible use of the Tertiary function, so they could use both Te and Ti, depending upon the situation.

    To suggest or claim people have "personality disorders" based upon an alleged Dom-Tert loop, when the Tertiary function can be either introverted or extraverted in attitude, is baseless. If the Tertiary is intraverted, or "flexed," using either direction, there is no loop to begin with. It has never been accepted by the type community that there is only one way the Tertiary function attitude can point.

    I think it's unfortunate that of all the things a person could choose to create as a thread, someone chose a topic to make people feel badly about themselves, as if to suggest they are somehow unhealthy or broken. Meanwhile, they are merely developing their functions at different rates, and ages, as healthy and quite normal individuals. Just because people develop their functions at different rates, doesn't mean they have a personality disorder. As a person who holds a degree in psychology, I find this thread potentially destructive in nature.

    I think we can all do better than this. Jung's goal was to become a whole individual -by establishing a healthy dialogue between the conscious and unconscious parts of ourselves. Suggesting people have personality disorders serves no one, nor fosters any type of beneficial growth for us as individuals, and society as a whole.

    And to Orobas, no one knows for certain what functions you are using at any given moment in time. For someone to claim they know, would be as ridiculous as claiming which neurotransmitters were most active in your brain at a given moment, and in what quantities. That of course would be preposterous. But if they try to tell you, check to see if they are doing it with a crystal ball.
    Interesting. I have noticed that go through more of an introverted loop when I am at a bad place in my life and i am an extrovert so what you say makes sense.

  3. #13
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I think it's unfortunate that of all the things a person could choose to create as a thread, someone chose a topic to make people feel badly about themselves, as if to suggest they are somehow unhealthy or broken. Meanwhile, they are merely developing their functions at different rates, and ages, as healthy and quite normal individuals. Just because people develop their functions at different rates, doesn't mean they have a personality disorder. As a person who holds a degree in psychology, I find this thread potentially destructive in nature.
    Well I'm sorry my post offended you. I'm not trying to tell people that they have personality disorders or that there is something wrong with them. Rather, I decided to share an interesting post I came across. I find it interesting... nothing more.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    And to Orobas, no one knows for certain what functions you are using at any given moment in time. For someone to claim they know, would be as ridiculous as claiming which neurotransmitters were most active in your brain at a given moment, and in what quantities. That of course would be preposterous. But if they try to tell you, check to see if they are doing it with a crystal ball.
    if this wasnt so long, i'd put it in my signature.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    hehe! yeah, I think there are some folks who really do suffer, and I believe personality disorders are very real, and heck maybe you could build models and such...but my Fi says that once done Ti-ing or Te-ing you have taken a real reductionist approach to the problem.
    PD's are very real. But any person can be a malignant narcissist, for example.
    We don't cut and paste functions and say:

    X+X = malignant narcissism.

    If we're going to resort to that type of shenanigans, I may as well start suggesting people who eat frosted flakes have restless leg syndrome.

  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Well I'm sorry my post offended you. I'm not trying to tell people that they have personality disorders or that there is something wrong with them. Rather, I decided to share an interesting post I came across. I find it interesting... nothing more.
    It;s okay Disney, it is an interesting idea to look at and mull over. I do this all the time, and I dont even mind doing it using myself as an example as I know I am kinda odd, jungian functionally and I like to explore how we all differ as individuals. But to see myself posted as an example of a personality disorder is a bit much.

    It is in bad form to make such a broad stereotype about another individual, especially something with as much stigma as BPD, given it is not well understood how to help people who suffer from BPD or NPD. Especially based on simple online interactions of during times of stress. We lack too much information.

    Sim is in bad form honestly for using me as a representative example in his theory. You didnt do anything wrong at all, except find an interesting theoretical idea and pass along, not realizing what Sim had done.

    It is all well.

  7. #17
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    An ENFP can be represented as:

    Ne
    Fi
    T
    Si

    And in many of the publications from CAPT, (found at capt.org) that is in fact, how it is represented. The reason there is no attitude listed for the Tertiary, is it has been in dispute for decades. It has also been commonly theorized that a person has flexible use of the Tertiary function, so they could use both Te and Ti, depending upon the situation.

    To suggest or claim people have "personality disorders" based upon an alleged Dom-Tert loop, when the Tertiary function can be either introverted or extraverted in attitude, is baseless. If the Tertiary is intraverted, or "flexed," using either direction, there is no loop to begin with. It has never been accepted by the type community that there is only one way the Tertiary function attitude can point.
    According to Lenore Thomson, the dominant orientation and dominant function are initially chosen (as distinct items) by the ego, and everything else is rejected: the other functions and the opposite orientation. So the dominant function takes on the "attitude" of the dominant orientation, and the other three functions (including the tertiary) take on the opposite attitude they have become associated with in the unconscious.

    However, the Puer (child) complex, (as the ego's first defense in maintaining the dominant orientation against the opposite one trying to get our attention from the unconscious) will orient the tertiary to the dominant attitude.

    So Beebe observes that the tertiary and 7th place function do "develop" close together, one behind the other. (1-2-3-7-4-5-8-6). Hence, you might be able to look at a whole "tertiary" function irrespective of attitude in some people.

    Still, there is a difference between an archetypal manifestation of the function, and what Lenore would call the "product of an undifferentiated function", which anyone can have access to, so long as it is in line with the ego's dominant standpoint. Beebe did acknowledge something like this as well. It seems to be some of his followers who have totally conflated the function attitude products with the archetypes, to the point that "shadow functions" are assumed to be hardly ever "used".

    So the person may gain more access to the 7th place function, but in one sense, it will still be aligned with an unconscious complex in the "shadows"

    The whole "personality disorder loop" thing would be from the ego trying so hard to maintain its dominant orientation, which is not good. The unconscious shadow attitude of the tertiary likely won't help much with that. After all, the problem is the ego trying to maintain the dominant attitude, and the opposite tertiary attitude would simply be yet another perspective pulling in the other direction, which the ego is resisting.

    So the key in this part of development is simply to pay more attention to the auxiliary, which will create the attitudinal balance.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    According to Lenore Thomson
    No offense Eric, but can you just once create a post without starting out with: "According to Lenore Thomson"?

    It's tiresome reading it, over and over and over. But since you brought her up at the beginning of your post for the 1,384th time, the woman has absolutely no psychoanalytical training; she was never a psychologist or psychiatrist with a client base. She was an editor. Just because Lenore has an opinion, doesn't mean there aren't other opinions to counter, or disprove hers.

    Now that I got that nonsense out of the way, Lenore has no way of knowing what the ego " rejects" any more than you or I do. I have read Lenore at length, and I have the option to "reject" her opinion. You aren't telling me anything I don't already know, including Beebe's model. Furthermore, for you to suggest someone should "pay attention" to the Aux, to create balance, is a bit amusing. By making the choice to ignore the Tertiary, and for that matter the Inferior, is to create IMBALANCE by choosing to push functions into unconsciousness. If there's anything Jung shouted from the rooftops his entire career it's this:

    "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate."

    I suggest you read Naomi Quenk, if you haven't already done so. She's a psychologist who has used type in her practice for decades. What she observed, repeatedly, was people using their inferior function in normal, healthy, ways that assists them on a daily basis. It's not the "demon child" people keep making it out to be. We need to move forward and look at things in a fresh way rather than continue to impart fear in others, not unlike turning on your TV and seeing what "threat level" the USA was at, every damn day.

    Warning! You are using your Tertiary and Inferior functions! A psychological terrorist attack is imminent!

    Look, we can all jawbone about theory until the cows come home. The difference between you and I, Eric, is I don't tell people what they "must do" to be a "normal" person. The reason I don't is what may be constructive for one person can easily prove disasterous for another- like suggesting people have "personality disorders" when they don't.

  9. #19
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Yeah; I forgot exactly what your position on her was. But sorry; just giving credit where it's due.
    She may not have those credentials, but she has tried to be truer to Jung, the author of these concepts, moreso than many others who have moved the theory off of its moorings. Hence, why she seems to have a better handle on it. A lot of things seemed to fit together better using her perspective.

    We know what the ego "rejects", because in preferring certain functions and dominant orientation, the others are naturally rejected, at least to some extent.

    Nobody ever said "ignore" the tertiary (or inferior) and push them into the unconscious. The problem is, some ignore the auxiliary in running to the tertiary too much, and that's where some of the imbalance lies.

    No one I have referenced makes the inferior out to be any "demon child". (You wouldn't happen to be confusing that with the eighth place function in Beebe's model, would you?) In older four function theory, where the inferior is considered "the shadow" and the other four aren't dealt with, your comment might hold. So yes, developing the inferior is encouraged as a part of total maturation. It has nothing to do with imparting any "fear".

    As for turning those "loops" into "personality disorders"; I haven't really bought into that, but was only explaining why those loops might be interpreted in a negative way like that.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
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  10. #20
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post

    Still, there is a difference between an archetypal manifestation of the function, and what Lenore would call the "product of an undifferentiated function", which anyone can have access to, so long as it is in line with the ego's dominant standpoint. Beebe did acknowledge something like this as well. It seems to be some of his followers who have totally conflated the function attitude products with the archetypes, to the point that "shadow functions" are assumed to be hardly ever "used".

    So the person may gain more access to the 7th place function, but in one sense, it will still be aligned with an unconscious complex in the "shadows

    So the key in this part of development is simply to pay more attention to the auxiliary, which will create the attitudinal balance.
    Eric, can you clarify what exactly you mean when you say "product" vs archetypical example?

    How can we consciously engage a function, yet still have it remain as part of a shadow? Is it that the function can oscillate between different uses at different times? (I could see this...)

    Can you elaborate regarding what "paying attention" to the aux function actually is for different functions? I understand what this means for Fi...but for others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    No offense Eric, but can you just once create a post without starting out with: "According to Lenore Thomson"?

    "Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate."

    Warning! You are using your Tertiary and Inferior functions! A psychological terrorist attack is imminent!

    Look, we can all jawbone about theory until the cows come home. The difference between you and I, Eric, is I don't tell people what they "must do" to be a "normal" person. The reason I don't is what may be constructive for one person can easily prove disasterous for another- like suggesting people have "personality disorders" when they don't.
    *giggles* I might have noticed the Lennore thing as well...but I figured it was Ti hard at work. But you have very good ideas and I find your ref suggestions very helfpul. Jag I must say I do adore the tert function alert. That is hysterical.

    Eric, on this note, jag does have a good point. MBTI has some very apparent flaws. From a marketing perspective to admit your entire system has flaws would be a pretty bad move, given revenue and established if questionable pool of data. You would have to build another test, gather many more stats and data, totally re-market it and end up competing against yourself. But once past that it all becomes theoretical...so open to a lot of room for reinvention and new thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Nobody ever said "ignore" the tertiary (or inferior) and push them into the unconscious. The problem is, some ignore the auxiliary in running to the tertiary too much, and that's where some of the imbalance lies.
    It seems that in Ne doms, the choice to use the tert is a protective one. Why do other MBTI types develop the tert at the expense of the aux? I say "develop" as "choice" is a nonideal term.

    My mbti course instructor was a neat infp who pointed out that to develop functions, we have to use them. This requires risk and work, not simple choice.

    Otherwise as Jung (and Jag) points out, the functions use us as shadow complexes.


    How do other types become familiar with their complexes and help this process of evolving the unconscious into consciousness? ENFPs chew on them via internal Fi and external Te discussions...

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