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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    hey guys, here's one description list for the function roles.



    so with the shadow processes, are they saying they're typically experienced negatively because when they do poke out from the shadows of our subconscious, it's because they're being a pain?
    Thanks, this was very helpful.


    lol, i feel the same way about Ti, it's my crappiest function by leaps and bounds. i have to admit, the deceiving role sounds pretty accurate.

    Se, on the other hand, i really like. i'm not very good at noticing bundles of detail all at once, but i get sensory stuff in Fi pulses/impressions... i really love letting Ne "tune out" sometimes, and letting Se automatically tune in, like a passive thing - during yoga, driving (fast), biking, horseback riding, floating in the ocean, rollercoasters with lots of flips and turns, etc. ... it's calming and reenergizing to me. not to mention i kind of love the adrenaline rush when pushing it with the more physical things

    i have a hard time thinking i'm really that psychologically advanced to have my last function going decently for me, but maybe i just got lucky to like things like very tactile arts (pottery, painting, drawing, etc.) and enjoying pushing the limits physically, both of which happen to involve Se. maybe the energy i use for Se ends up being taken away from poor Ti too O_o;
    I really wonder about function order, because while I was reading this it seems to me that Si would be my "relief role"/play/childlike...even childish...function. Me and my memories, getting into Fi/Si loops, being comforted by sensory things, the past.

    Also, my "devilish" function would appear to be more Ti than Se. I could be wrong though.

    I AM NEVER GOING TO FIT IN A BOX. I GIVE UP ON MBTI.

    Just kidding...sort of...

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    hey guys, here's one description list for the function roles.
    I'm also looking at 5th/6th function here...a lot of ENFPs on this board seem to be hostile to Fe...and it would be the Critical Parent role for ENFP, right? Interesting.

    But an INFP would actually have more development or appreciation for it (Fe)"It might be easy for us to develop skill in the process that plays this role, but we are likely to be more narrow in our application of this skill, and it will likely take more energy to use it extensively. In its positive aspect, it provides a shadow or depth to our leading role process, backing it up and enabling us to be more persistent in pursuit of our goals."

    I really feel torn between ENFP and INFP when I start to look at function order. It seems almost like I'd be INFP by function order.

    But then again, I think it's also not reasonable to assume that the human brain is THAT neatly organized. I'm quite sure our personalities don't fall QUITE that specifically into neat little roles.

  3. #13
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    The odd thing about those last four functions...


    When I note them, they take on the very worst, most horrible, nightmarish aspects of that particular function. Instead of seeing the beautiful side of Fe, I feel the really bad shameful side and so on..

    I tend to see the only under massive stress...it feels like part of me rolls around and forms a defensive barrier as the normal part couldnt hold down the fort anymore. Jung described this as "complexes" that arise and displace the ego temporarily. When it happens, the very worst aspects of my personality come into play. It isnt that those shadows functions are innately bad, just that I am using them like sledge hammers rather than the finely honed tools that someone in positions 1-4 would use them as. Almost like in that moment of stress, I dont ever see the positive aspects of the function.

    For me, a shadow Ni feels like a barrier to hide behind and my whole mind goes numb. This happens when I am in great emotional pain. All pain is quenched. When I use Ni in a more healthy way, I can feel my whole perspective shift internal and I will come up with very strange answers to problems I have been thinking on already. Gaps get filled, but the answers seem insane without any factual basis-yet they feel correct. It is just a baby Ni and only stays for short periods.

    Shadow Fe happens most when I am rebuked by an Fe user. It is an overwhelming sense of utter shame. I want to withdraw totally and erase any contribution of myself from the conversation. Fe in a more healthy way is very fleeting, but feels very calming, an acceptance of a slight loss of identity (from the Fi perspective), a blending of goals with those around me. I am trying to learn to tap into those when under stress as it is a more productive, less stressful stance than tert Te. It means moving away from "myself" to be a slightly different self, if that makes any sense. Letting go a bit.

    shadow Ti is not pretty. I sometimes note perhaps I tap into Ti in a healthy way when in a debate, I will get nit picky about the way a word is being used and how that might influence the whole argument-but this could be Te being used in a learned fashion to mimic Ti.

    Se? I dunno. I am so very unaware of everything around me. I dont know what this is honestly.

  4. #14
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    Yeah, thanks for posting that, skylights. The bolded parts in the demonic Fi description, actually seem describe how inferior Fe manifests itself at its worst. Maybe I'm just mistaken Fi for Fe? On the other hand, I do relate to aspirational Fe.

    The Devilish Role (sometimes referred to as the 8th function)
    The devilish role can be quite negative. Using the process that plays this role, we might become destructive of ourselves or others. Actions (or inactions) taken when we engage in the process that plays this role are often regretted later. Usually, we are unaware of how to use the process that fills this role and feel like it just erupts and imposes itself rather unconsciously. Yet when we are open to the process that plays the devilish role, it becomes transformative. It gives us the impetus to create something new—to make lemonade out of lemons, rather than lament their sourness.
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  5. #15
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    This should be stickied as the most important thread on this board right now.

    I would very much like some more information on this, because it doesn't make much sense. People keep saying I can't possibly be using Ti because I'm NeFiTeSi. Si is supposed to be the one I use with more difficulty right? Because it's the inferior. Well then what does that say about Se being the demonic?

    It would be nice if someone gave concrete examples and explanations for how all the 8 functions affect a particular type, just an example.
    Here is where I described each of the eight functions in each of the four shadow archetypes; in terms of them actually "shadowing" their primary counterparts:

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post844121 (844121)

    To understand the shadows, just look at the dom/aux/tert and inferior (and the related archetypes: hero/parent/child and anima) and the shadows will be the more negative aspect of it suppressed from consciousness.

    Also worthy of note which I really grasped after writing that post) is that the shadows are primarily projected onto others. We see the other person playing those roles, but it is really those archetypes as complexes operating within us. The related function will be the "perspective" the situation is seen through. Like they might be engaging the function, (it's more about a perspective than something they are "using", or some behavior), and it irritates us. We then respond in kind, but that is really coming from us, not them.

    Here I go into this more:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1207960 (1207960)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It is common knowledge that the attitude of the Tertiary function has always been under dispute, which is why it is given so much latitude. Furthermore, in many of the books published by CAPT (Center for Application of Psychological Type) they refrain from even identifying the attitude of the Tertiary function. So for ENFPs, they list the order as:

    Ne
    Fi
    T
    Si

    One of the theories that exists in the type community is the Tertiary is flexible, which means the person can use either, or both, attitudes. In other words, an ENFP can indeed be using Ti, Te, or toggle back and forth, at will, depending upon the situation the person my find themselves.
    Lenore Thomson explains why. If you treat the i/e orientation, the functions and the archetypal complexes separately, then the dominant orientation and dominant function are initially chosen (as distinct items) by the ego, and everything else is rejected: the other functions and the opposite orientation. So the dominant function takes on the "attitude" of the dominant orientation, and the other three functions take on the opposite attitude they have become associated with in the unconscious.

    However, the Puer (child) complex will arise, which is the ego's first defense in maintaining the dominant orientation against the opposite one trying to get our attention from the unconscious. So this Puer complex will orient the tertiary to the dominant attitude. The auxiliary and inferior will remain the opposite attitude, and the tertiary in the opposite attitude will remain unconscious (shadow) and become associated with a negative 'child' complex called the Trickster. The orientations opposite the other three will likewise have shadow complexes formed around them.

    In this vein, Beebe did suggest that the Puer and Trickster do "develop" close together. That's another reason why we cannot look at this order as "strengths". They do not even "develop" in that order. He suggested 1-2-3-7-4-5-8-6. Hence, you might be able to look at a whole "tertiary" function irrespective of attitude in some people.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Ok...so in an ENFP, Se would be my demonic function? Hmm I don't see it, though I guess Se can scare me when it's out of control, like I appreciate Se but the dark side of Se is terrifying to me...I don't want to race motorcycles or even get on crazy rollercoasters, and I trust the relative security of Si much more...I also use a buttload of Si for an ENFP, I think.

    So I almost wonder if we looked at this as INFP....that would make Ti my demonic function, and that's totally true. On functions test I score absolute lowest on Ti and it can annoy me to no end, even in academics...I'm like "wow look at this pretentious blah blah blah!" Yeah...
    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Thanks, this was very helpful.

    I really wonder about function order, because while I was reading this it seems to me that Si would be my "relief role"/play/childlike...even childish...function. Me and my memories, getting into Fi/Si loops, being comforted by sensory things, the past.

    Also, my "devilish" function would appear to be more Ti than Se. I could be wrong though.

    I AM NEVER GOING TO FIT IN A BOX. I GIVE UP ON MBTI.

    Just kidding...sort of...
    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm also looking at 5th/6th function here...a lot of ENFPs on this board seem to be hostile to Fe...and it would be the Critical Parent role for ENFP, right? Interesting.

    But an INFP would actually have more development or appreciation for it (Fe)"It might be easy for us to develop skill in the process that plays this role, but we are likely to be more narrow in our application of this skill, and it will likely take more energy to use it extensively. In its positive aspect, it provides a shadow or depth to our leading role process, backing it up and enabling us to be more persistent in pursuit of our goals."

    I really feel torn between ENFP and INFP when I start to look at function order. It seems almost like I'd be INFP by function order.

    But then again, I think it's also not reasonable to assume that the human brain is THAT neatly organized. I'm quite sure our personalities don't fall QUITE that specifically into neat little roles.
    I see all over the place, these archetypes do seem to be fitting INFP for you, and that's based on the roles, not strengths, as I have been emphasizing.
    Considering I also just ran across a post where you said you originally scored as INFJ; what is it that is making you think now that you're an E in the first place?
    I/E seems to be what you need to really weigh, now.

    For some reason, you did seem to fit ENFP as far as I could see; perhaps more outgoing or something? But then you cannot always go by online posts. But if the archetypes fit dom. Fi (backed up by Fe), relief Si, demon Ti, etc. that would really suggest INFP.

    While the organization seems like a lot, it is really just the symmetry created by the way the brain chooses one perspective and orientation, and suppresses others. It compensates by creating opposite complexes which are mirror images of the preferred ones (hero-anima; parent-child, and then the further suppressed shadows of these), and then framing the functions around them.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I see all over the place, these archetypes do seem to be fitting INFP for you, and that's based on the roles, not strengths, as I have been emphasizing.
    Considering I also just ran across a post where you said you originally scored as INFJ; what is it that is making you think now that you're an E in the first place?
    I/E seems to be what you need to really weigh, now.

    For some reason, you did seem to fit ENFP as far as I could see; perhaps more outgoing or something? But then you cannot always go by online posts. But if the archetypes fit dom. Fi (backed up by Fe), relief Si, demon Ti, etc. that would really suggest INFP.
    Here's why I decided I might be E: more likely to interject opinions into conversation, openly shows emotion, apparent "Te push" making me seem more assertive; also some attention-seeking behavior associated with ENFP.

    I am quite introverted in terms of needing time to myself and wanting one-on-one interaction, but apparently the forcefulness of my personality suggests extroversion?

    The thing is, though, I apparently seem a lot more introverted in person. I got INFP and INFJ, even someone suggested that she saw InFJ...meaning she thought she saw Fe and Si in me, more like ISFJ I guess, and was surprised that I seemed more "conservative" in person? However, I also got ENFP, ENFJ, and even ESFP from others here who met me. Apparently the only thing anyone can agree on is F, that's pretty clear.

    While the organization seems like a lot, it is really just the symmetry created by the way the brain chooses one perspective and orientation, and suppresses others. It compensates by creating opposite complexes which are mirror images of the preferred ones (hero-anima; parent-child, and then the further suppressed shadows of these), and then framing the functions around them.
    In terms of functions, at least, the INFP order makes the most sense to me.

  8. #18
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    If you seem more introverted in person, and "needing time to myself and wanting one-on-one interaction" then that sounds more like the real you. And I don't really buy the whole "ENP - 'introverted extravert'" thing some mention.
    You're listing a few behaviors as being extraverted: interject opinions into conversation, openly shows emotion, some attention-seeking behavior, but those in themselves I would not think carry as much weight as the other stuff. Anyone can do those things at times. In fact, an introvert, from being reserved, might tend to lash out like that at times from naturally holding things inside so much.

    As for the Te, how do uou think that compares to Si. If you said Si fits tertiary (child/relief), then does Te definitely not fit that role? (then, it could be safely ruled out). Does it seem weaker or less mature? For an INFP, it would be animus or aspirational, which carries a sense of vulnerability around external logic. You might feel intimidated by it, yet look up to it in others. The "child" can be like that as well, yet would be a bit more conscious.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  9. #19
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I also just decided to check the Inclusion-Control-Affection thread, to look for a particular clue, and sure enough, you put Inclusion: Phlegmatic-Sanguine.

    That explains why you're waffling between E and I. (I didn't seem to individually break your results down, but glossed over several of them at a time after your post since a few of you with type uncertainty were coming out as Phlegmatic blends).

    So you're technically an ambivert, as the "Phlegmatic" part of that blend means you express moderately; more than an introvert, but less than an extrovert. The Sanguine part means you respond as a Sanguine, meaning want interaction from others. However, the Supine's responsiveness is equal to the Sanguine, despite expressing as an introvert.
    So you are between Sanguine and Supine (or between Get Things Going and Behind the Scenes in Interaction Styles); slightly on the Sanguine side from the profile you chose over there.

    I believe in translating to type, it could really go either way, since the function order will force the dominant to be E or I. One possible deciding factor would be the archetypal roles, which are suggesting I.

    Control either Phlegmatic-Sanguine or Melancholy-Phlegmatic:
    As I said over there, this is overall moderate (Phlegmatic), which in Control I have associated with NF, and both of those choices border Supine, which I have also mapped to NF. (Melancholy in Control would be SJ, and Sanguine in Control would be SP, but for you, it all seems to be centering on Phlegmatic or Supine).

    So from both the functions and ICA, it looks like you're really INFP.
    INFJ would not be as responsive, being a Melancholy in Inclusion (as you may have seen; almost all of them came out as that), so I think that is out as well. ENFJ is a Choleric in Inclusion. Again, too directive. ESFP would be Sanguine in both Inclusion and Control, and you did border on that in both areas (hence seeming like you could go that way as well); but again, the functions seem to push towards INFP.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    If you seem more introverted in person, and "needing time to myself and wanting one-on-one interaction" then that sounds more like the real you. And I don't really buy the whole "ENP - 'introverted extravert'" thing some mention.
    You're listing a few behaviors as being extraverted: interject opinions into conversation, openly shows emotion, some attention-seeking behavior, but those in themselves I would not think carry as much weight as the other stuff. Anyone can do those things at times. In fact, an introvert, from being reserved, might tend to lash out like that at times from naturally holding things inside so much.

    As for the Te, how do uou think that compares to Si. If you said Si fits tertiary (child/relief), then does Te definitely not fit that role? (then, it could be safely ruled out). Does it seem weaker or less mature? For an INFP, it would be animus or aspirational, which carries a sense of vulnerability around external logic. You might feel intimidated by it, yet look up to it in others. The "child" can be like that as well, yet would be a bit more conscious.
    Te is not a relief thing for me. I know that Si is playing this role for me. However, the "toughness" with which I can come across, the "cut the crap" tough love stuff, was something I actually learned growing up, and from life experience. I don't know if that's Te, but people seem to think that it is. Reality is necessary. People have to learn to function and survive in the real world, and logic cannot be completely abandoned. That being said, I often find people with dom/aux Te much too overbearing and structured, I often don't want to follow their rules, can be hurt by their 'objective' standards, and can even view them as heartless. As I say, I *think* I am better at Sensing than Thinking (Logic) in the MBTI sense. I could be wrong and just not even be aware of what I am doing.

    I also wonder about my preference for writing in a more structured fashion than many ENFPs I see on this forum - even highly educated ones who went to grad school, and I didn't even graduate from a four year university. Is that because I'm an INFP? Or is that just a personal quirk?

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