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  1. #1
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Default Odd idea about (some) NT's and NF's.

    I was thinking about a Star Trek episode in which Data was contrasted with Spock. Spock is half-human, but seeks to be completely logical and free of passion. Data is an android, but seeks to be more human.

    The idea this gave me was Spock as representing NT's in a way, and Data representing NF's in another way.

    So here's my idea... could it be that our first two (conscious) functions represent what we consider important, how we try to live? Like Spock's desire to be completely logical and free of passion, and Data's desire to be human?

    And conversely, could our weaker functions represent our limitations in pursuit of that? Like Spock's being half-human and Data's being an android?

    The reason I thought this was interesting was because I think it gives a picture of how our less conscious functions have as much influence over us as our more conscious ones.

    Data may or may not be an NF, but it seemed to me that there's something NF-like in the idea of a "quest to be more human." I think on some level, we must seek meaning because we don't have the innate sense of purpose that many other types seem to have intrinsically. Not to the extent an android doesn't, but a similar quality may be there in some way.

    After all... who seeks what they already have?

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I was thinking about a Star Trek episode in which Data was contrasted with Spock. Spock is half-human, but seeks to be completely logical and free of passion. Data is an android, but seeks to be more human.

    The idea this gave me was Spock as representing NT's in a way, and Data representing NF's in another way.

    So here's my idea... could it be that our first two (conscious) functions represent what we consider important, how we try to live? Like Spock's desire to be completely logical and free of passion, and Data's desire to be human?

    And conversely, could our weaker functions represent our limitations in pursuit of that? Like Spock's being half-human and Data's being an android?

    The reason I thought this was interesting was because I think it gives a picture of how our less conscious functions have as much influence over us as our more conscious ones.

    Data may or may not be an NF, but it seemed to me that there's something NF-like in the idea of a "quest to be more human." I think on some level, we must seek meaning because we don't have the innate sense of purpose that many other types seem to have intrinsically. Not to the extent an android doesn't, but a similar quality may be there in some way.

    After all... who seeks what they already have?

    What do you think?
    Marilyn Monroe was an android. Well, not exactly. I know that you have heard of her. She was a famous actress long before you were born.

    She had a quest to be more human because she did not have an innate sense of purpose.

    She said she was a phony. That is how she looked to herself.
    Do you have this feeling? That you are a phony?

    I do not know if Marilyn was an NT or an NF. Probably NT.

    I always had a feeling that I am a phony. Even now, whenever I post, I always think: A phony post, I am a phony.
    This is because I do not have the innate sense of purpose.

    I think this is a phony post.

  3. #3
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    She said she was a phony. That is how she looked to herself.
    Do you have this feeling? That you are a phony?
    Not really... I feel more that I'm searching for something to define myself by. Nothing ever seems to capture it as well as I'd like.

    It's more that at times I feel a vague sense of something missing, an innate understanding I think other people have. I want to know what it is, and what it means.

    I always had a feeling that I am a phony. Even now, when I post, I always think: A phony post, I am a phony.
    This is because I do not have the innate sense of purpose.
    Why does not having an innate sense of purpose make you phony? How can you be untrue to something that doesn't exist?
    I think this is a phony post.
    For what reason?

  4. #4
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Not really... I feel more that I'm searching for something to define myself by. Nothing ever seems to capture it as well as I'd like.

    It's more that at times I feel a vague sense of something missing, an innate understanding I think other people have. I want to know what it is, and what it means.



    Why does not having an innate sense of purpose make you phony? How can you be untrue to something that doesn't exist?


    For what reason?
    Other people (= the bourgeoisie) have the innate understanding and certainty. It is therefore they do not feel phony. They feel the opposite of phony.
    Colin Wilson called the phony an outsider. The title of his book.

    To be a phony I think is to recognize that we live in a hostile, indifferent space. It is called the Universe. An existentialist philosophy.

    For what reason? The existentialists do not have the answer.

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    To be a phony I think is to recognize that we live in a hostile, indifferent space. It is called the Universe. An existentialist philosophy.
    Does this make you phony because it isn't the case, or because it is?

    For what reason? The existentialists do not have the answer.
    Are you an existentialist?

  6. #6
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Does this make you phony because it isn't the case, or because it is?



    Are you an existentialist?
    How could I think it isn't the case? If we know anything about existence, we are existentialists, we recognize it is the case: It is the recognition that makes us feel phony.
    The bourgeoisie have the innate certainty because they do not see where they live. Their unfounded illusion is called realism.

  7. #7
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    How could I think it isn't the case? If we know anything about existence, we are existentialists, we recognize it is the case: It is the recognition that makes us feel phony.
    That seems ironic. If you are the one who is not deluded, why is that you are the one who feels phony?
    The bourgeoisie have the innate certainty because they do not see where they live. Their unfounded illusion is called realism.
    So they are certain because they are capable of accepting an illusion that I can barely even see? Interesting.

  8. #8

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    Funny. I identify more with Data (after he got his emotion chip) than Spock.

    I would like to understand my feelings and those of others. Its funny, in a strange way, I got my "emotion chip" a few years after I hit puberty. Until then, pepole (including my own dad) used to accuse me of being emotionless and robotic.

    Every now and then people will still do an impersonation of me as a robot. But that hasn't happened in years.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #9
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    NTs versus NFs. I'm amazed a war has not broken out!!

    First off I think your reasoning is perhaps too polarised but as I think I've said similar before I'll just move on.

    In reference to yourself (I'm not thinking of getting answers in reference just using you as my example ) there is the possibility that you are indeed an NF but one who has by circumstance been indoctrinated as a T and has thereby adopted the INTJ approach to things. A parallel example to this is my brother in law who despite being an ENFP types as an ENFJ and seems to be an ENFJ, it is only in the details that you see he is a caged person and that his P is trying to break out. He does insane kind of neurotic pictures of geometric shapes covering A3 sheets done first in pencil with rulers and such then gone over in pen. A painstaking process.

    In direct reference to your question, I'd say that it's not that NFs desire to be more human or that NTs desire to be more machine like but rather the T thinks first of the thought and the F of the emotion. Also I guess ti could be termed as the focal point of their judging process with Ts supporting the most reasoned solution (in preference) and Fs supporting the most compelling solution (in preference).

    I think that what Spock best represents is the NT claim to being creatures of logic alone and them struggling internally to suppress the emotions which they claim not to have.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #10
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Other people (= the bourgeoisie) have the innate understanding and certainty. It is therefore they do not feel phony. They feel the opposite of phony.
    Colin Wilson called the phony an outsider. The title of his book.
    Odd. In America, it's the bourgeoisie children of bourgeoisie parents who start up crappy rock bands and screech about being phonies and outsiders.

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