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  1. #11
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Odd. In America, it's the bourgeoisie children of bourgeoisie parents who start up crappy rock bands and screech about being phonies and outsiders.
    Exactly.
    A touch of irony.
    A reminiscence of the "phony" outsiderism of the Hippy movement of the 60s.

    The baby boomers were rich in number. Too rich.
    It did not help if the daddy was rich.
    Unless he was very rich.
    Even the elevated did not enter college.

    To add insult to injury: There was a war going on.
    It did not go well.

    Only the college kids were safe.
    The traditional kids of the traditional families were not safe.

    A paradigm.
    When Hitler invaded France in 1940, forty per cent of the communist leaders turned fascist.

    A son in the crappy rock band attracts the attention of the father.

  2. #12
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Athenian,
    After reading through the more philosophical posts on here, I often read these threads piecemeal sorry, I have a few more thoughts.

    What is it that causes a problem which causes you to search for a definition for yourself or some load points upon which to hang a definition/ label (after all definitions are labels)?

    Do you recognise that as an individual you are more likely to find contradicting things which are true of you than congruent ones?

    Would you not agree that a wise man loses a piece of certainty every day? If so why?

    Does knowing that an apple is an apple change it's flavour? Obviously not so the question should be, why search for a definition?

    Oh and in an intuitive side point, have you tried the enneagram or some other such psychological tool and see if that fills in the gaps? For example me as a pure INTP doesn't work too well because I'm actually quite sociable (you'd never guess ) however the enneagram and the FIRO Behaviour tests in particular have filled in a lot of those gaps and now I'm fairly confident that I've got a damn good psychological model of myself. Of course I was interested in finding the correct definitions to better understand myself, I'm querying your reasoning only because it's often the question people forget to ask.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #13
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    My first thought was that Data was more NT-like and Spock was more NF-like. They could both be very extreme examples of an NT and an NF who wanted to master what they were not very good at. In essence, the T did not feel complete or happy without developing his F, and the NF did not feel complete or happy without developing his T. However, both are taking it to an extreme and behaving in an unhealthy way, because instead of looking to simply balance their dominant functions with their weaker functions, they're looking to completely transform themselves, permanently.

    Spock is an NF in the sense that he believes he is not innately logical and that in order to become happy he must become more logical. Data is NT-like in the sense that he is not innately sensitive and thinks he will achieve happiness by becoming more sensitive.

    Just adding my two cents. I really liked the way you looked at it, too. If we simply want to capitalize on our strengths and enhance our innate gifts, we would develop our dominant functions, yet we are in a sense held back by our other functions, weak though they may be. But in another light, it's really an essential and good thing that we don't become the epitome of our top two functions. Someone approaching life with just their top two functions would seem pretty crazy and undeveloped. I can't even picture what it would be like if a person could only access their top two functions. How scary would that be?

    In a sense, even in our top four functions we all have an innate dichotomy, or "rift." An INFP's top two functions are Fi and Ne, followed DIRECTLY by the exact OPPOSITE of those two functions, Si and Te. Not only is there sensing, but it is directed inward, in the opposite direction of intuition. The thinking is also directed in the opposite direction of feeling. Fascinating, really. We're all paradoxes! Good paradoxes.
    They're running just like you
    For you, and I, wooo
    So people, people, need some good ol' love

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I think that what Spock best represents is the NT claim to being creatures of logic alone and them struggling internally to suppress the emotions which they claim not to have.
    Yes, that was what I was thought.

    But remember, I only meant it as a metaphor. It was more to show how a person can strive for one thing, but is always resisting it's opposite to some extent to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mempy View Post
    My first thought was that Data was more NT-like and Spock was more NF-like. They could both be very extreme examples of an NT and an NF who wanted to master what they were not very good at. In essence, the T did not feel complete or happy without developing his F, and the NF did not feel complete or happy without developing his T. However, both are taking it to an extreme and behaving in an unhealthy way, because instead of looking to simply balance their dominant functions with their weaker functions, they're looking to completely transform themselves, permanently.
    Really? I never thought of it that way.

    Fascinating, really. We're all paradoxes! Good paradoxes.
    Yeah. I think so too.

  5. #15
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Exactly.
    A touch of irony.
    I've had enough of irony these days.

    When you're around enough people who aren't like you, don't like you, or don't receive enough validation for who you are, you're going to think something is wrong with yourself. No one human being is that strong, unless cold.
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

  6. #16
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    By the use of "some" in the thread title, I am going to assume that you mean certain types, not a random sampling of NFs and NTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    And conversely, could our weaker functions represent our limitations in pursuit of that? Like Spock's being half-human and Data's being an android?

    The reason I thought this was interesting was because I think it gives a picture of how our less conscious functions have as much influence over us as our more conscious ones.
    Very true, but only for a healthy individual, who is seeking a well-rounded approach to life. For the rest, their inferior functions have far too little influence on their being.

    Data may or may not be an NF, but it seemed to me that there's something NF-like in the idea of a "quest to be more human." I think on some level, we must seek meaning because we don't have the innate sense of purpose that many other types seem to have intrinsically. Not to the extent an android doesn't, but a similar quality may be there in some way.
    Perhaps this is true of the INFJ--that an innate sense of purpose and humanness is absent.. or at least for you, but it most certainly is not the case for the INFP. INFPs are purpose-driven (by values) and are almost human to a fault. INTPs do, however wish to be freed from their emotions, possibly because they do not understand them, and therefore must reject them.

    I speak only of these types because they are the only ones I have first-hand knowledge of.

  7. #17
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FallsPioneer View Post
    I've had enough of irony these days.

    When you're around enough people who aren't like you, don't like you, or don't receive enough validation for who you are, you're going to think something is wrong with yourself. No one human being is that strong, unless cold.
    The bourgeoisie do not feel guilt for being the bourgeoisie.
    They want you to admit guilt.
    Do not give them that satisfaction.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Apollonian's Avatar
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    I sympathize better with Spock's father... obviously.

    If Sarek isn't an INTJ, then I give up. Bendai syndrome = suppressed introverted feeling... anyone?

    Data always struck me as either untypable or INTP. Spock seems more like an NF than Data, but independently, I'd have to say Spock was an NT.

    Interesting thoughts. I will have to think more later.

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