What would the world do without Fe?

[BlueScreen]

If the world got too messed up we'd probably stop procrastinating and save it. Then optimise our recreated society to be more fun and make more sense than the old one. I'd enjoy it. Could grab some ENTPs to help with the revolution. You never get to do fun things like revolt in a stable society.

 

[onemoretime]

I thought that NTP was all about what cant be seen. You can extrapolate all this other stuff to come up with theories, but you cant extrapolate this. You broken?

Just like Kenny Rogers sang, you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. I won't learn anything from that conversation, because learning's not the focus nor the intention there.

 

[PeaceBaby]

The kicker is no matter how you look at it Fe-Fi difference really is blaming Fe as its one side of the problem. Lets remove Fi blame and Fe blame and put things on a sliding scale where Fi is on one side and Fe is on the other. Successful communication is when that whole scale can be covered from left to right. Basically Fe will leave its side, Fi will leave its side and they will meet somewhere inbetween covering the entire communication gap. What if Fi hits a sticking point and Fe takes it upon themselves to bridge that extra gap in regards to communication. Say Fi made it 25% and Fe went the 50% and then the extra 25%. At this point Fi will feel a gap because of the sticking point. To say that its because of the difference and then to recognize it as a communication issue is like shooting Fe in the foot. Be prepared to face the entire gap(though I get the impression that Fe just steps back to 50% and will force Fi to go the extra 25%.)

Just one angle in regards to the communication isse. I face the same problem with Te.

My thoughts on this are that since Fe "rules" are visible, and Fi "rules" generally not, it is harder for Fe to understand Fi. That could be why Fi users feel like they have to enter Fe space to attempt to be understood rather than an Fe user meet them in Fi space, or even in the middle, halfway.

(Forgive the usage of Fe user / Fi user terminology; it's imperfect, but all I've got atm.)

It's like we speak different languages, but I can decipher yours (to a point) since I see and hear it all day long - yet mine remains somewhat of a mystery, since it resides mostly in my own head and heart.

Just a quick impression from your post.

 

[Jaguar]

I dunno. I tend to get pretty irate when all I see is a bunch of people being dicks to each other (read: much earlier in this thread, in other threads, etc.)

I tend to get irritated when people can't pick up a book and read about the functions.
Worse yet are those who admit they've never read a book on the subject, but claim to be some kind of typing "expert."

"Yuckitty Yuck Yuck Yuck, hey huneeeee, that must have been an ESTP that just walked by. He was smelling his coffee! Daaaayuuuummmmm we're good at typing! "

 

[Totenkindly]

My thoughts on this are that since Fe "rules" are visible, and Fi "rules" generally not, it is harder for Fe to understand Fi.

Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.

 

[onemoretime]

Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.

Everyone has personal values that are unique to them as an individual. There are also objective rules of human conduct that must be followed lest others get offended. Just as those personal values develop differently based on the experiences of the individual, so do those objective rules manifest themselves differently based on the experiences of the culture. However, the purposes underlying those manifestations are universal.

 

[skylights]

The kicker is no matter how you look at it Fe-Fi difference really is blaming Fe as its one side of the problem. Lets remove Fi blame and Fe blame and put things on a sliding scale where Fi is on one side and Fe is on the other. Successful communication is when that whole scale can be covered from left to right. Basically Fe will leave its side, Fi will leave its side and they will meet somewhere inbetween covering the entire communication gap. What if Fi hits a sticking point and Fe takes it upon themselves to bridge that extra gap in regards to communication. Say Fi made it 25% and Fe went the 50% and then the extra 25%. At this point Fi will feel a gap because of the sticking point. To say that its because of the difference and then to recognize it as a communication issue is like shooting Fe in the foot. Be prepared to face the entire gap(though I get the impression that Fe just steps back to 50% and will force Fi to go the extra 25%.)

Just one angle in regards to the communication isse. I face the same problem with Te.

good description, i agree with you.

i have that issue between me and Ti dom/aux too... strong Ti communication style from a Ti dom/aux - lots of definition and logical back-and-forth - is hard for me to understand, but if i don't make an effort then it's not fair to just blow off the other person and call it their fault that things are tense between us. plus it might not be Ti at all, it might just be me being an ass.

i dunno if you read a post to proteo i wrote a little bit ago but i think this has happened with my best friend and i too. when we both get angry, she puts up a wall to defend herself, and i explode outwards. and it's 0% effective because she's blocking my attempt to open up and i'm obliviously trying to understand her wall, instead of her. we think we're making an effort but we don't realize that our own style is not working for the other side, and it just escalates our own personal upset.

i personally don't see any negativity in saying that Fe and Fi communicating with each other might have some difficulties. it's not blame; neither side is wrong - a Fe dom misunderstanding a Fi dom does nothing wrong because they're understanding things from their point of view. the same goes for a Fi dom misunderstanding a Fe dom. they're just different takes on things, and applying Fe philosophy to Fi or Fi philosophy to Fe can result both in some really cool points, but also sometimes in misunderstanding one another. the thing that people might do that is morally wrong, to me, is to totally blow off the other person, like i am frequently tempted to do with the Ti doms i live with! lol.

anyway, to me, it sounded like orobas's point in applying typology to the situation was not to point out "Fe blame," but to understand what was happening, which suggests (at least from my pov) an attempt to be able to bridge that gap if she wants. and it seems obvious to me that proteo was making a definite effort to communicate with oro as well, but it did come off as strong to me, which was what i wanted to point out.

My thoughts on this are that since Fe "rules" are visible, and Fi "rules" generally not, it is harder for Fe to understand Fi. That could be why Fi users feel like they have to enter Fe space to attempt to be understood rather than an Fe user meet them in Fi space, or even in the middle, halfway.

yes, this is a good point. i feel like it's why i have trouble understanding Ti too. it's much more subtle and interwoven than my pretty blatant Te. and sometimes i think it can feel to others like Fi-based anger comes out of nowhere, whereas to me it's been building for a while as i feel like my toes are being stepped on more and more. but to be fair to others, i need to communicate that building frustration before it does explode.

Everyone has personal values that are unique to them as an individual. There are also objective rules of human conduct that must be followed lest others get offended. Just as those personal values develop differently based on the experiences of the individual, so do those objective rules manifest themselves differently based on the experiences of the culture. However, the purposes underlying those manifestations are universal.

i really like this description! i've been having a hard time believing that either Fe or Te are universal because my Te ways are quite different from a lot of other Te ways, and i know some Fe doms with different ways of expressing that Fe. i really liked this:

To me that's a very accurate (although a little less warm and fuzzy) depiction of Fe.

and it seems to resound with your description. each person's web will be slightly different, and their bonds different and their perspective and experiences different, so every person will have a different kind of Fe perspective.

 

[Tiltyred]

For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.

Yes, but bear in mind too: My Fi "rules" could quite closely match any Fe ones ... there's quite a lot of natural overlap, commonality, between the two functions.

(Which protean aptly pointed out by posting the mission statement earlier in thread.)

And Fe "rules" vary from group to group, place to place ... I generally observe and study them to learn what they are in order to not step on any toes. I value relationships and peaceful coexistence, so therefore I care enough to do this.

Why am I so careful? Because there's this sense I have, that if I break them, inadvertently or not, it will be noted and held against me in the future. My true nature and intent are less relevant it seems. The Fe "brownie points" or "faux pas" I score become data points, that an Fe user seems to use as reference to predict my future behaviour and thus make judgements about my character.

As an Fi user, I do find it constraining.

For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.

I hear what you are saying; just because protean's reaction is not the same as Oro's does not mean she herself is not feeling any painful emotion behind her words. Anger exists to protect us from something we find threatening in our lives. I do think if it had kept on longer, protean would have needed TLC too, and still probably would benefit from working through these anger points, identify what feels upsetting to her about this discussion. And I agree - heartfelt pain expresses in a wide variety of ways.

I'd love to explore it, because I do see it as a pattern.

But proteanmix was in the power position throughout the thread (esp as it started to turn a tad personal). Just as in a boardroom discussion, one must note all the players at the table, gage their reactions, keep things delicately balanced to ensure everyone has a chance to speak their piece, be heard and feel understood.

 

[skylights]

For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.

are you talking about me, or others?

it's easier to reach out to someone when they're breaking down than putting out spikes. if you're angry and exasperated it's harder for me to connect with you than if you're sad and crying. putting out spikes isn't wrong, of course, it's just a different way of handling things. in some ways it's more responsible because you're taking care of yourself instead of letting yourself be totally vulnerable. but it does make others more likely to go on the defense to protect themselves instead of attending to your hurt. maybe that's not right, or good, but i don't see it as an illogical response.

if this is about me then i do feel bad that proteanmix is feeling hurt and/or devalued. that was never my intention, at least personally, and part of the reason i'm doing all this analysis is because i want to help her (and oro) not feel bad. it seemed like the communication between she and orobas was being misunderstood on both ends, and i thought it would be helpful to her if i point out my understanding of the situation so she can see why others might have reacted the way they did - not because they dislike or disvalue her, but because of the way her statements have come off, at least to me personally.

anyway, i hate talking about people who are here and i've been doing it a lot. sorry if i've misinterpreted anything you guys did or said, this was just my understanding and i'd rather just let y'all hear it in case it is valuable, instead of not trying to help at all.

 

[Tiltyred]

I don't see it as illogical. I see it as unenlightened and unsympathetic.

 

[uumlau]

For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.

Agreed. As my grandmother taught me, just because someone (or even any creature, like a crab or a fly) doesn't cry, doesn't mean they don't hurt.

Here's a comic for all those who feel misunderstood, whatever Jungian functions or types with which one might identify:

 

[skylights]

I don't see it as illogical. I see it as unenlightened and unsympathetic.

it is so fucking hard not to take this comment personally.

but yeah, okay. i agree. the rest of my points still stand, though, too.

good cartoon uumlau

 

[Glycerine]

Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.

That's WHY I get so irritated with all these "What is Fi?" threads because it usually JUST told by the OP's singular perspective when it's in reality different from individual to individual. It's like ONLY a few people try to explain what when it's really just limited to their perspective on it. I understand the basics of how my closest friends and family use Fi. I don't need strangers from a website to TELL ME how my closest family and friends use Fi when Fi is typically individually-based. Seriously what more do we need to know about Fi if it can be drastically different from person to person. I just find it quite presumptuous for other Fi users to talk for Fi users as a whole if it is so individually based. It's just so ironic.

EDIT: This is what I have noticed since I have started on this forum almost two years ago.

 

[Amargith]

The values are different, but the mechanics are *not*. And there are typical Fi-values as well that are often shared by most of em. (aka the not harming others-one and the freedom for everyone-one)

The reason it's being explained, at least in my case is coz it gets tiresome to not be understood and constnatly have to appologize for who you are and how you see things. Especially as Fi tends to long to be understood.

 

[Tiltyred]

If we're gonna fight and hurt each other's feelings, it should be about something better than this.

 

[Glycerine]

The values are different, but the mechanics are *not*. And there are typical Fi-values as well that are often shared by most of em. (aka the not harming others-one and the freedom for everyone-one)

The reason it's being explained, at least in my case is coz it gets tiresome to not be understood and constnatly have to appologize for who you are and how you see things. Especially as Fi tends to long to be understood.

Seriously??? That really sucks. I am sorry to hear that. I would like to think I have a good basic understanding because I have been around so many Fi users. If that is what is really going on here, I wish that we could be understanding of each other.

 

[Amargith]

*smiles* That's very much appreciated

I was more talking in general, also irl. Part of why you find so much Fi-talk here is coz..well frankly, I for one tend to be labelled weird at best...difficult and unethical at worst becoz I see and do things differently than most people out there. And that's partly due to Fi. Ironically, Fi tends to be about the search for who you are and you do that by analyzing yourself...put those things together, add a pinch of frustration and a place where you find others who can relate and voila..an internet forum where you can finally discover who you are and how others experience this. And next on the agenda: figuring out how to bridge the gap between you and those that you have difficulty communicating with


And here we all are.

 

[Glycerine]

I have gotten my share of "you're weird", "you're being rude", you're going down the wrong road" by other Fe users. It feels like crap but I will tell you those are just the poohead Fe users that you shouldn't give the the time of day.

 

[Jaguar]

For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.

Now there is an insightful comment.

Where do people get the idea that unless Protean displays histrionic behavior, that she's not hurting? Because she comes across as a strong woman, she needs no support? Did it ever occur to anyone that Protean has probably been giving of herself so much her entire life, that she might not know how to ask for help or support to begin with? Ah, yes. Those who appear strongest need no help, no support, no friends.

Think again.