What would the world do without Fe?

[proteanmix]

I think you're forgetting the huge role body language, tone of voice, and just simply knowing someone very well plays in communication.

I believe that the internet, especially with respect to text communications that leave only verbal cues without tone of voice, and stressful situations that force one to interact more closely with someone (such as job coworkers or a business partnership or a marriage), is what amplifies the communication difficulties. In real life, I've plenty of NFJ and NTP friends, and didn't really notice any communications difficulties with either until I had to work with a very close INTP friend of mine.

I think those would be wrapped up in my statement "there are so many more factors that make a much bigger difference."

And yes, your relationship changed b/w you and your INTP friend hence an increase in communication problems. I tell some of my friends all the time, if I had to work with you (and if you had to work with me) I don't think we'd get along anymore. Things that are tolerable in a friendship relationship can be intolerable in a professional relationship.

 

[garbage]

I think people on this forum EXAGGERATE miscommunications.

+ a billion

Let's leave body language and tone of voice aside. Those are undoubtedly positive contributors to communication that we don't have on this forum, so we need other bases of comparison if we're going to evaluate this.

So. Do people really have these issues on other Internet forums and chatrooms, where that extra information is also not available? (For the record, other MBTI forums don't count) Are potential disagreements irreconcilable because of typological or functional differences?

There's a huge difference between uncovering actual issues and creating them from nothing.

 

[Serge]

What would the world be like without Fe? Different. Not better. Just different. Fi can enforce social norms if it chooses to, Fi just often break social norms to actually connect with a person. I have to be honest and say that I'm a little bit disturbed by how much Fe is placed on a pedestal and how useless and selfish people think Fi to be.

 

[rav3n]

Without Fe, it would become a male dominated world

Not likely. The definition of femininity would be amended which wouldn't be a bad thing, in my opinion.

Fe has its positives and negatives like all cognitive functions. A world without Fe would require every person to be more self-reliant and self-responsible. Again, not such a bad thing.

 

[uumlau]

I think those would be wrapped up in my statement "there are so many more factors that make a much bigger difference."

And yes, your relationship changed b/w you and your INTP friend hence an increase in communication problems. I tell some of my friends all the time, if I had to work with you (and if you had to work with me) I don't think we'd get along anymore. Things that are tolerable in a friendship relationship can be intolerable in a professional relationship.

Except you're implying that MBTI type plays a fairly small role.

My point is that in internet communications and in very close, stressful situations, the Te/Ti/Fe/Fi differences become far more significant than they are in normal casual friendship. There is plenty of common ground between those who use all of these functions. Te and Fe mostly sound alike and share very similar concerns (if for very different reasons), Fe and Fi share values, Te and Ti mutually appreciate a logical rational approach, and so on. But when push comes to shove, the differences come out, and there's a weird unity of Fe with Ti and Te with Fi where the differences aren't so severe.

In particular, the internet text format seems like it shouldn't cause such difficulties, but it does. So I don't think people are exaggerating their miscommunications on the forums, I believe the miscommunications become more apparent BECAUSE of the forums.

 

[sculpting]

+ a billion

Let's leave body language and tone of voice aside. Those are undoubtedly positive contributors to communication that we don't have on this forum, so we need other bases of comparison if we're going to evaluate this.

So. Do people really have these issues on other Internet forums and chatrooms, where that extra information is also not available? (For the record, other MBTI forums don't count) Are potential disagreements irreconcilable because of typological or functional differences?

There's a huge difference between uncovering actual issues and creating them from nothing.

Amazon.com: That's Not What I Meant!: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships (9780345340900): Deborah Tannen: Books

This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.

 

[garbage]

This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.

I haven't read the book--just those Amazon reviews--but a discussion of "metamessages," voice pitch and intonation, and expectations in conversation don't really sound like what most would classify as Fi. The whole package might be different and may have an Fi feel to it, or I might have a misunderstanding with respect to Fi and Fe--I have no idea.


In any case, I don't think the issue is whether disagreements and differing priorities exist. They definitely do, as this author states.

So what's the primary source for most disagreements? Where do the misunderstandings actually come from? Are they actually as underlying, fundamental, and unchanging as we seem to believe? If we're missing the other person's perspective, is it because we have core personality differences or simply differing experiences?

Moreover, if we can actually use tools such as the MBTI and this book to actually genuinely understand others and reach out to them, are we really all that different from one another?


One thing I've tended to notice is that people tend to type others as opposite types because they disagree with them. Their own internal mental models of opposing types become the things they disagree with.

Disagreements occur, definitely. But people can also change their habits, perspectives, and communication styles, and most people are a lot more flexible than we give them credit for. People often learn passive-aggressive or very direct techniques to protect their egos in some way, but these can be transcended.

Cognitive functions might be useful for classifying perspectives that can cause disagreements, but to the extent that they are viewed as static and "locked in," they do a pretty poor job of describing sources of disagreements.

 

[sculpting]

I dunno mr greedy eyebrows...

on the INFJ common issues thread I think you can see some of the very best discussions here...that highlight how universal this issue is across that divide. Both sides approach with the best intent and end up arguing.

To use any tool, the first thing you need to understand is that you are different....then you can use tools to bridge those differences.

The diffs seem to be somewhat is priorities...but there is a significant linguistic element as well. the way we invite others to share, the way we seek feedback, all differs...and is misread with ill intent and motives assigned on the receiving end.

But honestly, this issue of Fe/Fi and Te/Fi vs Ti/Fe has been beaten to death in thousands of posts here.....so I will not convince you of anything in a single reply...

 

[Serge]

I haven't read the book--just those Amazon reviews--but a discussion of "metamessages," voice pitch and intonation, and expectations in conversation don't really sound like what most would classify as Fi. The whole package might be different and may have an Fi feel to it, or I might have a misunderstanding with respect to Fi and Fe--I have no idea.

From what I've observed, Fi types learn metamessages to be able to express themselves clearly. Everyone learns paraverbal messages, some people tend to pay more attention to it than others though.

 

[proteanmix]

Except you're implying that MBTI type plays a fairly small role.

Implying? That's like 75% of the reason why I'm still at this forum. You should've seen me two years ago...I've mellowed in the twilight of my years. MBTI/typology plays as much of a role as people make it play. If a lot of emphasis is placed on type then of course you'd summarize the differences as being typologically related. Pin the tail on the donkey.

I'm not saying type has zero role, I just think for those who (over)emphasize the importance of type of course they're going to find more type boogeymen jumping out of closets. I think the most indisputable part of MBTI is introversion and extroversion.

My point is that in internet communications and in very close, stressful situations, the Te/Ti/Fe/Fi differences become far more significant than they are in normal casual friendship. There is plenty of common ground between those who use all of these functions. Te and Fe mostly sound alike and share very similar concerns (if for very different reasons), Fe and Fi share values, Te and Ti mutually appreciate a logical rational approach, and so on. But when push comes to shove, the differences come out, and there's a weird unity of Fe with Ti and Te with Fi where the differences aren't so severe.

I guess that's in your experience? I find they disappear once I get to know a person better. Who's experience do we use as a roadmap? If I say this doesn't happen to me and you say it does, how consistent and reliable can this possibly be? And why should anyone in their right mind use this a their map to interpersonal interaction when it's obviously as wobbly as it is? A smile is a smile no matter where in the world you are. These questionable entities like Fe and Fi and whatever change depending on your personal experience. I asked people to start describing how Fe behaves on an intimate level and no one has taken me up on it. I asked for people to splice out the Fe/Fi differences in the Value Statement I listed above and no one has taken me up on it.

If it's that obvious and easy to distinguish and differentiate then show me. I think things like advice columns are good places to get real life situations that perhaps you can tease out these monstrously huge differences that are so apparent.

In particular, the internet text format seems like it shouldn't cause such difficulties, but it does. So I don't think people are exaggerating their miscommunications on the forums, I believe the miscommunications become more apparent BECAUSE of the forums.

Written communication is not as clear as face-to-face communication and even f2f communication can get quite dicey. I think bologna (2x dude!! ) makes a point worth considering:

+ a billion

Let's leave body language and tone of voice aside. Those are undoubtedly positive contributors to communication that we don't have on this forum, so we need other bases of comparison if we're going to evaluate this.

So. Do people really have these issues on other Internet forums and chatrooms, where that extra information is also not available? (For the record, other MBTI forums don't count) Are potential disagreements irreconcilable because of typological or functional differences?

There's a huge difference between uncovering actual issues and creating them from nothing.

Amazon.com: That's Not What I Meant!: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships (9780345340900): Deborah Tannen: Books

This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.

Interesting one of the customer reviews for this book says:

...relationships often suffer from a variety of different problems, ranging from differences in personal habits, to differences in values, to differences in religious views, but that is more or less a given in any relationship, especially one in which people share a domicile. However, it is how those relationship partners choose to "deal" with their inevitable differences "communicatively" that will determine the ultimate success or failure of their relationship. Do they choose to disagree or argue endlessly? Do they insult each other, or call each other names? Do they try to talk over each other,or become violent? Or do they approach each other in cooperative manner, open to each other's different ideas and viewpoints, with a willingness to learn from each other?

This has been my overarching point throughout this thread. I started a thread about Indirect/Direct communication to try to tease some discussion out of that. I don't remember if it was spammed with people trying to correlate direct/indirect communication to MBTI, but IIRC you have said that Te users are the direct communicators while Fe users communicate indirectly. Statements like that are based in what? I communicate directly to a fault (regrettably, my big mouth has gotten me into a lot of trouble) but in your framework directly communicating Fe users are an anomaly. This is where and why people stretch type into places it just doesn't go...too many outliers or people or just don't fit according to what their type supposedly does.

I guess you're trying to create some theory of everything in your mind using MBTI and you disregard stuff that doesn't fit. It's not going to fit. It's not going to because it can't and it's not supposed to; you can't infer the things you try to infer from people based on typology.

 

[SillySapienne]

Amazon.com: That's Not What I Meant!: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships (9780345340900): Deborah Tannen: Books

This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.

Read the book, own the book, loved the book, and yes, she is Fi, that's it.

 

[Tiltyred]

I do recall an ENFJ coming to my desk about six weeks back-they dont stay long where I work as it seems to hurt them inside...we chatted for a few minutes...then she started talking about extra work that needed to be done...she described it in detail..."we will need somebody to help out...We arent sure who will do it....the work will need to be done ..." all the time hinting that I needed to do the work. I let her do this for a bit. I understood what she wanted, but I didnt want to do the extra work. I didnt have time to take on more work. Finally she left...never having asked me directly to help out. If she had asked directly, I would have felt obligated to help her.

Do you consider the above an example of communication failure?

 

[Tiltyred]

Amazing.

Because on my read, I thought there was someone who wanted someone who wanted to work overtime/on that project. The opportunity and need were shown to you. You didn't respond. So the person moved on to someone else. There was no communication breakdown. You knew she wanted someone to work and you knew you didn't want to.

Tell about the ISTJ and the ISFJ!

 

[sculpting]

Amazing.

Because on my read, I thought there was someone who wanted someone who wanted to work overtime/on that project. The opportunity and need were shown to you. You didn't respond. So the person moved on to someone else. There was no communication breakdown. You knew she wanted someone to work and you knew you didn't want to.

Tell about the ISTJ and the ISFJ!

Hmmm, So..first the example was shown to illustrate indirect communication in an ENFJ.

Bet yeah, I get what you are saying...but she was resource strapped in a project management role...thus in need of help via procurement of resources. There is no overtime as we are all on salary. In my case I understood the Need. But a Te dom would have been clueless. The only reason I knew of the Need was hanging out here and learning form you guys... After a few minutes of her chatting, it was a very odd "Ah-hah, so she seems to want something from me" moment. "Ohhh, she wants ME to do it....wow!"

Without Type C background though, would have had no idea she wanted ME to do it. I actually would have assumed she was venting and then affirmed that I would be stressed in that situation too and I hoped it all worked out for her, made a few suggestions about how she accomplish the work in a more efficient way, then tried to make her go away so I could get back to work....

She got stuck doing it all herself.

The ISFJs do this odd thing...they really want to please others. They also modify the message dependent on the recipient. This is great at interpersonal communication but can be problematic if it is an SOP, revenue, project timeline update or anything very factual.

In this case she would prepare documents and seek feedback from the ISTJs. The ISTJs would provide very blunt Te feedback. She assumed they were upset with her or being rude. She begin to try and make them happier by being even nicer-thus seeking even more feedback. The ISTJs saw this as being incompetent. Thus they begin to be even more direct in critique and frustrated at having to "redo" her work.

They assumed her "incomplete" work-her attempt to allow them to contribute and edit more, her meetings to try and work together-was laziness and incompetence, an inability to work independently, combined with a failure to deliver on her part. Why couldnt she just do her work?

Her attempts at Fe rapport were met with a Te judgment of inefficiency and lack of required job skills.

Both sides pushed further and further in the wrong direction. Eventually she just froze as nothing she could do would please them...so she did nothing. She was just quiver and redo things over and over again... She was an emo basketcase and totally useless. Totally unwilling to make any independent choice as she took the direct criticism she received as signs of being on trouble...they hurt her very much...

We have many, many isfjs who fall into this cycle...

 

[Tiltyred]

Ok, but is that necessarily a problem? Painful to watch, I'm sure, but ... the ISFJ does not belong in your organization if she can't toughen up and "just do her work" and learn to get her personal needs met elsewhere. She needs clearer instruction. The desire to please is no less.

Maybe it's because I've worked so long, I have trouble understanding that the ENFJ got "stuck" doing her own work -- she wanted someone who wanted to do the work with her. In the absence of that, she had to do it herself -- that would have been her second choice, but it's hardly a disaster. Sometimes you don't want to have to force or coerce another person; it's not worth it. The only time it comes down to that is if you know for fact you cannot meet deadline without help, and then things crisp up, right? Then things become more directive.

ETA: We have ISFJs who fall into that cycle, too -- the ISTJ complains that she "just shut down on me and refused to do my work." It's kind of funny. That's exactly how I got my ISTJ, and you know why I have her? Because of my soft heart. Literally because I pitied her because she can't help it that she's such a bitch that she ran through so many secretaries in a year's time that she was getting a horrible reputation and nobody wanted to do anything for her at all.

 

[proteanmix]

Hmmm, So..first the example was shown to illustrate indirect communication in an ENFJ.

Bet yeah, I get what you are saying...but she was resource strapped in a project management role...thus in need of help via procurement of resources. There is no overtime as we are all on salary. In my case I understood the Need. But a Te dom would have been clueless. The only reason I knew of the Need was hanging out here and learning form you guys... After a few minutes of her chatting, it was a very odd "Ah-hah, so she seems to want something from me" moment. "Ohhh, she wants ME to do it....wow!"

Interesting. I don't view that as indirect communication. If someone is saying to me, "we will need somebody to help out...We arent sure who will do it....the work will need to be done ..." I interpret that as someone asking for help. Do you find it difficult to understand subtle/indirect communication? It's funny, this reminds me of a CPR class I took where they told us before you can perform the Heimlich Maneuver on someone, you have to ask if they're choking first and get some positive indication from them that they are in fact choking.

More importantly, did she have the authority to delegate work to you? If so, I'm surprised you have the option to refuse. Perhaps that's why she hesitated from directly telling you to do this and that, hoping instead that saying what she did was enough to move you to action.

If someone who is not my supervisor or project lead tells me to do something when I'm already inundated with work, I don't have to do anything they say. It's assy, but I don't have to do it. Another layer is I've been told by my director if anyone other than her or the project lead tells me to do something, I don't have to do it. All requests for scope increase are to go through those people.

So there are some complications to your vignette that may be indicative of more things at work than Fe using indirect communication methods.

But seriously, I can't help but think there is some deliberate obtuseness going on. I've worked with TJs and FPs who have said similar things the ENFJ said in meetings and have been meet with "I'm willing to step in and lead a hand with this project." People are capable of interpreting what that woman was asking. I've seen more people get offended for people telling them what to do who have no jurisdiction over them than the converse.

 

[sculpting]

Ok, but is that necessarily a problem? Painful to watch, I'm sure, but ... the ISFJ does not belong in your organization if she can't toughen up and "just do her work" and learn to get her personal needs met elsewhere. She needs clearer instruction. The desire to please is no less.

Maybe it's because I've worked so long, I have trouble understanding that the ENFJ got "stuck" doing her own work -- she wanted someone who wanted to do the work with her. In the absence of that, she had to do it herself -- that would have been her second choice, but it's hardly a disaster. Sometimes you don't want to have to force or coerce another person; it's not worth it. The only time it comes down to that is if you know for fact you cannot meet deadline without help, and then things crisp up, right? Then things become more directive.

The ISFJ was a bit personal for me, as I love her very, very much. It hurt to watch this happen to her. Let's assume her name is "Sara austin".

Our ISTJs, with no knowledge of typology, have taken to calling out the other ISFJs in our organizations as "Oh god, it's another Sara Austin". She has become a symbol of a group of people who are considered in ineffectual and useless. Typological classification, without any MBTI test needed-yet they only apply the label to the ISFJs....

Wrt the enfj, I guess it is about efficiency and where that individuals time is best spent. She wasted time...and thus money...indirectly requesting help. Then even more money was wasted as she spent her time doing work that could have been delegated....an opportunity cost as she got stuck doing some fairly trivial tasks involving labeling, when she could have been better utilized interacting with customers...

another cool example...we will have a large meeting...30 folks from diverse departments. Everyone is expected to speak up and form a final working path forward. Meeting minutes are taken, tasks assigned and we all begin work. The ISFJs will go back to their department, share the task, then be redirected by their manager to do things differently from the meeting. Thus a week later we all remeet to find out they not only made no progress, but that we all wasted our efforts working in a direction that their group has decided not to follow....a Te user would have explained directly why the direction chosen was important and should be maintained, but the isfjs will tend to allow the manager to redirect...

For more fun, the same meeting example above, but an ESFJ will actually say nothing...but then later meet one on one with executive management and force a replanning of an entire project....if they had spoken up at the meeting, we could have remodifed things as a group and found a way to meet their needs....but indirectly it ends up a train wreck wasting 30 individuals times 40 hours=at least $30,000 for each week this happens.

Another way I see Fe indirectness is that EXTPs will not speak up over Te doms and auxes in meetings...or they will soften the message to the point that the Te dom aux has no idea how very severe the issue is...thus does nothing to address it. The ENTP ends up frustrated..."how can they not see how badly we need new resource?" The Te dom is oblivious to there ever being a need for resources as all they saw was Fe mannerisms that seemed very amiable with no sense of urgency.

Even worse is if you stack a Te dom/aux over a manager who is Fe aux...the Fe user uses indirect terms or tried to put the Te dom at ease...forgetting to emphasize the project is a giant FAIL. The Te dom goes apeshit when he gets a very direct version from an INTJ.

The ENTPs think the ENFPs are reactionary and not to be trusted. The ENFPs think the EXTPs are backstabbing and playing at politics.

An ENFP came to me the other day and told me that she was tired of an ESTP "telling her about her feelings. I dont care how she feels, I need the work done". I just laughed as I recognized the ESTP was legitimately trying to convey an issue in Fe terms.......it is craziness.

My ENTP and I just sit and watch the patterns unfold...we have learned to predict what will happen...

 

[Jaguar]

I think people on this forum EXAGGERATE miscommunications. Noise and interference are natural byproducts of communication, just like carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of respiration. If you're saying that the reason why miscommunications exist is (majorly?) attributed to the differences in these functions, then I disagree....there are so many more factors that make a much bigger difference. You'd think the other function pairs Se/Ni and Si/Ne would have just as much difficulty, but for some reason people with their own agendas seem to lay the blame at this.

Two of my closest friends for life are Te/Fi and we're astoundingly seamless as far as our communications are concerned.

Poetry in motion.

 

[Tiltyred]

The ISFJs will tend to allow their manager to redirect? Isn't that what the manager is supposed to do, direct? So if you agree to accept their management, why would you not allow your manager to redirect? If it's done wrong, that is not your fault, it is the manager's fault. There's no appreciation of chain of command there at all. Unless your organization is just not hierarchical at all -- but that doesn't tend to attract ISFJs, who like firm leadership.

And those ISTJs will be humbled. There will come a day when they will wish they had a Sara Austin to be loyal to them and protect their profile in the organization by not allowing a bad word to be said about them and acting happy no matter what it takes to be working with them. People who can't handle people tend not to be promoted...

 

[Tiltyred]

Yeah, that's a very different environment from what I have chosen to work in. I am not and never will be the boss, and that's how I like it. The only decision I make is in choosing who I will work for. Once I consent to work for somebody, we understand that I will take their direction, and there is zero friction as long as they can give clear directions. If people above me have different ideas about how to do things, I won't move until the one who writes my review tells me what he/she wants.

It's funny because I do get very irritated with "when do you think you might be finished?" because that shows completely deficient instructions to begin with. Give the deadline when you give the assignment. Then I will be finished when you told me to be finished.

The ISTJ is not difficult once you understand that there can be no relationship. If you bring her coffee, she gets suspicious, if you offer her a cookie, she thinks there's something wrong with it, otherwise why wouldn't you want it for youself, if you see she's been crying and ask her if there's anything you can do, she gets pissy, so ... who/what she wants to be is not for me to say. I would no more make her a list than the man in the moon.