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  1. #81
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I think you're forgetting the huge role body language, tone of voice, and just simply knowing someone very well plays in communication.

    I believe that the internet, especially with respect to text communications that leave only verbal cues without tone of voice, and stressful situations that force one to interact more closely with someone (such as job coworkers or a business partnership or a marriage), is what amplifies the communication difficulties. In real life, I've plenty of NFJ and NTP friends, and didn't really notice any communications difficulties with either until I had to work with a very close INTP friend of mine.
    I think those would be wrapped up in my statement "there are so many more factors that make a much bigger difference."

    And yes, your relationship changed b/w you and your INTP friend hence an increase in communication problems. I tell some of my friends all the time, if I had to work with you (and if you had to work with me) I don't think we'd get along anymore. Things that are tolerable in a friendship relationship can be intolerable in a professional relationship.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think people on this forum EXAGGERATE miscommunications.
    + a billion

    Let's leave body language and tone of voice aside. Those are undoubtedly positive contributors to communication that we don't have on this forum, so we need other bases of comparison if we're going to evaluate this.

    So. Do people really have these issues on other Internet forums and chatrooms, where that extra information is also not available? (For the record, other MBTI forums don't count) Are potential disagreements irreconcilable because of typological or functional differences?

    There's a huge difference between uncovering actual issues and creating them from nothing.

  3. #83
    Member Serge's Avatar
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    What would the world be like without Fe? Different. Not better. Just different. Fi can enforce social norms if it chooses to, Fi just often break social norms to actually connect with a person. I have to be honest and say that I'm a little bit disturbed by how much Fe is placed on a pedestal and how useless and selfish people think Fi to be.
    Johari/Nohari wall! Thanks in advance for filling it out.

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  4. #84
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Without Fe, it would become a male dominated world
    Not likely. The definition of femininity would be amended which wouldn't be a bad thing, in my opinion.

    Fe has its positives and negatives like all cognitive functions. A world without Fe would require every person to be more self-reliant and self-responsible. Again, not such a bad thing.

  5. #85
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think those would be wrapped up in my statement "there are so many more factors that make a much bigger difference."

    And yes, your relationship changed b/w you and your INTP friend hence an increase in communication problems. I tell some of my friends all the time, if I had to work with you (and if you had to work with me) I don't think we'd get along anymore. Things that are tolerable in a friendship relationship can be intolerable in a professional relationship.
    Except you're implying that MBTI type plays a fairly small role.

    My point is that in internet communications and in very close, stressful situations, the Te/Ti/Fe/Fi differences become far more significant than they are in normal casual friendship. There is plenty of common ground between those who use all of these functions. Te and Fe mostly sound alike and share very similar concerns (if for very different reasons), Fe and Fi share values, Te and Ti mutually appreciate a logical rational approach, and so on. But when push comes to shove, the differences come out, and there's a weird unity of Fe with Ti and Te with Fi where the differences aren't so severe.

    In particular, the internet text format seems like it shouldn't cause such difficulties, but it does. So I don't think people are exaggerating their miscommunications on the forums, I believe the miscommunications become more apparent BECAUSE of the forums.

  6. #86
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    + a billion

    Let's leave body language and tone of voice aside. Those are undoubtedly positive contributors to communication that we don't have on this forum, so we need other bases of comparison if we're going to evaluate this.

    So. Do people really have these issues on other Internet forums and chatrooms, where that extra information is also not available? (For the record, other MBTI forums don't count) Are potential disagreements irreconcilable because of typological or functional differences?

    There's a huge difference between uncovering actual issues and creating them from nothing.
    Amazon.com: That's Not What I Meant!: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships (9780345340900): Deborah Tannen: Books

    This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

    It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

    It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.
    I haven't read the book--just those Amazon reviews--but a discussion of "metamessages," voice pitch and intonation, and expectations in conversation don't really sound like what most would classify as Fi. The whole package might be different and may have an Fi feel to it, or I might have a misunderstanding with respect to Fi and Fe--I have no idea.


    In any case, I don't think the issue is whether disagreements and differing priorities exist. They definitely do, as this author states.

    So what's the primary source for most disagreements? Where do the misunderstandings actually come from? Are they actually as underlying, fundamental, and unchanging as we seem to believe? If we're missing the other person's perspective, is it because we have core personality differences or simply differing experiences?

    Moreover, if we can actually use tools such as the MBTI and this book to actually genuinely understand others and reach out to them, are we really all that different from one another?


    One thing I've tended to notice is that people tend to type others as opposite types because they disagree with them. Their own internal mental models of opposing types become the things they disagree with.

    Disagreements occur, definitely. But people can also change their habits, perspectives, and communication styles, and most people are a lot more flexible than we give them credit for. People often learn passive-aggressive or very direct techniques to protect their egos in some way, but these can be transcended.

    Cognitive functions might be useful for classifying perspectives that can cause disagreements, but to the extent that they are viewed as static and "locked in," they do a pretty poor job of describing sources of disagreements.

  8. #88
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    I dunno mr greedy eyebrows...

    on the INFJ common issues thread I think you can see some of the very best discussions here...that highlight how universal this issue is across that divide. Both sides approach with the best intent and end up arguing.

    To use any tool, the first thing you need to understand is that you are different....then you can use tools to bridge those differences.

    The diffs seem to be somewhat is priorities...but there is a significant linguistic element as well. the way we invite others to share, the way we seek feedback, all differs...and is misread with ill intent and motives assigned on the receiving end.

    But honestly, this issue of Fe/Fi and Te/Fi vs Ti/Fe has been beaten to death in thousands of posts here.....so I will not convince you of anything in a single reply...

  9. #89
    Member Serge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I haven't read the book--just those Amazon reviews--but a discussion of "metamessages," voice pitch and intonation, and expectations in conversation don't really sound like what most would classify as Fi. The whole package might be different and may have an Fi feel to it, or I might have a misunderstanding with respect to Fi and Fe--I have no idea.
    From what I've observed, Fi types learn metamessages to be able to express themselves clearly. Everyone learns paraverbal messages, some people tend to pay more attention to it than others though.
    Johari/Nohari wall! Thanks in advance for filling it out.

    "Taste. I have no taste. I don't like these tiny portions or your artful abortions of sound, sealed with a kiss, slathered in the sauce sarcastic. So go choke on your irony"
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    "Life for you, has been less than kind
    So take a number, stand in line
    We've all been sorry, we've all been hurt
    But how we survive, is what makes us who we are"


  10. #90
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Except you're implying that MBTI type plays a fairly small role.
    Implying? That's like 75% of the reason why I'm still at this forum. You should've seen me two years ago...I've mellowed in the twilight of my years. MBTI/typology plays as much of a role as people make it play. If a lot of emphasis is placed on type then of course you'd summarize the differences as being typologically related. Pin the tail on the donkey.

    I'm not saying type has zero role, I just think for those who (over)emphasize the importance of type of course they're going to find more type boogeymen jumping out of closets. I think the most indisputable part of MBTI is introversion and extroversion.

    My point is that in internet communications and in very close, stressful situations, the Te/Ti/Fe/Fi differences become far more significant than they are in normal casual friendship. There is plenty of common ground between those who use all of these functions. Te and Fe mostly sound alike and share very similar concerns (if for very different reasons), Fe and Fi share values, Te and Ti mutually appreciate a logical rational approach, and so on. But when push comes to shove, the differences come out, and there's a weird unity of Fe with Ti and Te with Fi where the differences aren't so severe.
    I guess that's in your experience? I find they disappear once I get to know a person better. Who's experience do we use as a roadmap? If I say this doesn't happen to me and you say it does, how consistent and reliable can this possibly be? And why should anyone in their right mind use this a their map to interpersonal interaction when it's obviously as wobbly as it is? A smile is a smile no matter where in the world you are. These questionable entities like Fe and Fi and whatever change depending on your personal experience. I asked people to start describing how Fe behaves on an intimate level and no one has taken me up on it. I asked for people to splice out the Fe/Fi differences in the Value Statement I listed above and no one has taken me up on it.

    If it's that obvious and easy to distinguish and differentiate then show me. I think things like advice columns are good places to get real life situations that perhaps you can tease out these monstrously huge differences that are so apparent.

    In particular, the internet text format seems like it shouldn't cause such difficulties, but it does. So I don't think people are exaggerating their miscommunications on the forums, I believe the miscommunications become more apparent BECAUSE of the forums.
    Written communication is not as clear as face-to-face communication and even f2f communication can get quite dicey. I think bologna (2x dude!! ) makes a point worth considering:

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    + a billion

    Let's leave body language and tone of voice aside. Those are undoubtedly positive contributors to communication that we don't have on this forum, so we need other bases of comparison if we're going to evaluate this.

    So. Do people really have these issues on other Internet forums and chatrooms, where that extra information is also not available? (For the record, other MBTI forums don't count) Are potential disagreements irreconcilable because of typological or functional differences?

    There's a huge difference between uncovering actual issues and creating them from nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Amazon.com: That's Not What I Meant!: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships (9780345340900): Deborah Tannen: Books

    This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

    It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.
    Interesting one of the customer reviews for this book says:
    ...relationships often suffer from a variety of different problems, ranging from differences in personal habits, to differences in values, to differences in religious views, but that is more or less a given in any relationship, especially one in which people share a domicile. However, it is how those relationship partners choose to "deal" with their inevitable differences "communicatively" that will determine the ultimate success or failure of their relationship. Do they choose to disagree or argue endlessly? Do they insult each other, or call each other names? Do they try to talk over each other,or become violent? Or do they approach each other in cooperative manner, open to each other's different ideas and viewpoints, with a willingness to learn from each other?
    This has been my overarching point throughout this thread. I started a thread about Indirect/Direct communication to try to tease some discussion out of that. I don't remember if it was spammed with people trying to correlate direct/indirect communication to MBTI, but IIRC you have said that Te users are the direct communicators while Fe users communicate indirectly. Statements like that are based in what? I communicate directly to a fault (regrettably, my big mouth has gotten me into a lot of trouble) but in your framework directly communicating Fe users are an anomaly. This is where and why people stretch type into places it just doesn't go...too many outliers or people or just don't fit according to what their type supposedly does.

    I guess you're trying to create some theory of everything in your mind using MBTI and you disregard stuff that doesn't fit. It's not going to fit. It's not going to because it can't and it's not supposed to; you can't infer the things you try to infer from people based on typology.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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