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  1. #61
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Fe is like the grease that makes things run smoothly in society, if used well it will gloss over the sharp edges, restore the hurting, include the outsiders, connect seemingly incompatible people.
    And if used badly?
    [shudder]
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  2. #62
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Just one thing, in some cases, I'm not telling them to take responsibility for themselves. But for others to take responsibility. For example, I once worked at a charity that helped employ disabled individuals in light clerical work. The environment itself didn't have a lot in place to take care of them in a nurturing way. One problem I began to notice is that some of these people were walking home after work.. one guy in particular made a fairly long trek to a bus stop.. and then once on the bus, basically had to ride it's route for a couple of hours before getting home (I had asked him about this stuff btw.. and when he told me I thought it sucked.. My F put myself in his place.. he didn't have much time for himself once he got home. Work, work, work.. ride a bus.. go home, eat.. go to sleep.. work, work, work. Meh). So I started giving him rides. And then I started wondering why I was the one with this responsibility. I got a little selfish and pissed off, I admit. I didn't have the Fe sustainment with nurturing. And day after day I started brooding about it.. I looked at my supervisors, even the resident counselor.. the environment seemed kind of careless.. real production oriented, and that counselor didn't do much of anything in general. So I took it up with my boss, and showed her how pissed off I was.. like "why aren't you doing this?" and why isn't he [the counselor] doing something.. etc.. I think I embarassed her, but she and that counselor both started setting up an option for a van to pick people up and personally give them rides. I was relieved.. I didn't want do it.. I had enough in me to call people on it though, and make them do it. So if I'm instructing anyone, I was telling some others to be a little more concerned.
    That's sticky situation I think. Yes, it was unfortunate that the man had to walk. My sister worked for an organization called The Arc which had a program to transport people around. Depending on the area, there may or may not be funding for a proper bus or shuttle to take people around. What began to be frustrating for my sister is that she was using her gas and putting the wear and tear on her car to take people home so they wouldn't be trapped on public transportation with long distances to travel. Many people also had social and anxiety issues that made being on a bus a volatile environment.

    My solution would be to make people contribute to a "pot" so that no one person was overwhelmed with transporting people around if there are no funds for an officially-sponsored mode of transportation. The pot could either be your money, time, and/or car so the responsibility is diffused. Because believe you me, one person (like you) will eventually get tired of doing all the work.

    But that's communist solution and people seem to get angry when you make them help other people so what can you say?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #63
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    But that's communist solution and people seem to get angry when you make them help other people so what can you say?
    In this case though, it was a charity (corporate charity, but still), and I could appeal to their own mission statement. Sometimes it's easy for some people to treat places like that as "business as usual", so someone has to check it. If I was a lowly employee and believed in offering more empathy, then so should my superiors.

    I trusted their Te enough to come up with a solution that isn't too much of a burden to either Te or Fi though. It all works out :P I'm sure it isn't always that easy though.

  4. #64
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Satine have you ever engaged in a Te bond with another? It seems like an odd idea...Fi bonds and Fe bonds, sure..but watch the NTPs...they talk about Ti bonds. They will bond over ideas.

    A Te bond seems to be this odd mutual agreement to work together towards a common goal among Te users.... They are hard wired to identify objectives, appoint a strong leader, establish hierarchy based upon competence, then forge ahead to reach those goals.

    Words like integrity, loyalty, hard working, taking one for the team...these are ways Te forms social cohesion. It isnt always pretty on the surface. It can appear harsh, cold, and force each person to self-sufficiency. If you are on a Te team and you are lazy or you fuck up, you will be called out on the spot. Not really a social rebuke but almost like you end up getting measured against the standard, we address how you have failed, then send you back to try again. If you excel, you will be called out into the spotlight as an individual. Te leaders tend to be very good at highlighting their individual stars on a team.

    It is kinds like all Te users have a ground in Fi values of pulling their fair share and not cheating. If you do not work, you do not eat, seems to be the process. The Te users will also work the longest hours, and push themselves very hard.

    Thus through these mutual Te bonds of respect you actually establish social cohesion...just a very different flavor from Fe social cohesion...

    I would agree that emotional closeness would only be shared with those closest to you. However I would suggest the weakest in the group-the very sick, old and dying would also be cared for as Fi will help the one hurting the most...not the one it has social bonds to already...

    You're right, such a bond does exist. But it's shared over a common goal, something outside of the group. To get back to the cats, if you look at lions, they sorta have such a society. They get together for common goals: hunting large prey, having a babysitter for your kittens, in the male lions case: a harem. But they're very much still independent. They'll hunt together...or alone. They'll protect one another's kittens becoz then their kittens are being protected as well. They also have an agreement where whoever makes the kill, gets to eat first. Doesn't matter if she's usually the lowest in rank, in this case, she gets to feed first. Then the male eats. Then the females..only then the kittens. Compare that to wolves society and you get the difference: there the pups get to beg, get to go first and everyone else better eat after the alpha has! Otherwise they'll be paying the price. Doesn't matter who killed it, it belongs to all.

    Personally, I'll take the TeFi bond anyday. Things are devided equally, everyone has to pull their own weight, and the rules are clear and fair. It doesn't feel that way with the Fe-bond to me, where the individual takes a backseat to the group, often meaning unfair treatment of those in lower statement. Or at least...that's how it feels to me.

    On the other hand, Te-bonding feels cold, efficient and...well...that's it. There's mutual grooming in those prides as well, but that's usually by those that truly like each other and care and have formed an intimate bond...Fi
    It doesn't extend to feel as cohesive as with Fe...ever. Though you do know those around you have your back..at least, on the issues agreed upon. For the rest of it, you're on your own..but that also means you're free to go where you want, do whatever, and be yourself. I also find that while Fe feels warmer when you've got a group together, the distance is a lot greater one on one. They always stay somewhat reserved, I feel...polite, as it were. It's very rare to get them to drop that. And it's something I find very frustrating as I like being myself with someone I trust and love, and consider my friend. It's like a glass ceiling you cannot get passed. I'll take the feel of a Fi-user any day then. So yeah..Fe is warmer in group than TeFi could ever be. But I find Fi way warmer one on one.

    As for the sick, old and weaker, if the rules state that they're cared for becoz it benefits all (older lions make excellent babysitters ), they will be tended to, especially by those that are close to said person (Fi). Some will do it becoz they care, others will do it coz it's a downpayment for a service (babysitting).
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  5. #65
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    In this case though, it was a charity (corporate charity, but still), and I could appeal to their own mission statement. Sometimes it's easy for some people to treat places like that as "business as usual", so someone has to check it. If I was a lowly employee and believed in offering more empathy, then so should my superiors.

    I trusted their Te enough to come up with a solution that isn't too much of a burden to either Te or Fi though. It all works out :P I'm sure it isn't always that easy though.
    I just went to The Arc's website and got their Core Values statement...I just find it hard to understand how people splice things like this up into Fe and Fi. It just doesn't seem that way to me...it's such a mix and I truly don't see where one ends and the other begins.

    The Arc believes in:

    People First
    The Arc believes that all people with intellectual and developmental disabilities have strengths, abilities and inherent value; are equal before the law; and must be treated with dignity and respect. The Arc represents, supports and acts on behalf of individuals and their families regardless of level of disability or membership in The Arc. The Arc believes in self-determination by empowering people with the supports needed to make informed decisions and choices.

    Democracy
    A democratic process involving members, through affiliated chapters, is utilized to take positions on important issues, policies and programs.

    Visionary Leadership
    The Arc leads by promoting the mission core values and position statements. We lead with integrity, accountability, and by open, honest and timely communication. We work with individuals, organizations and coalitions in a collaborative fashion. There is a valued partnership with volunteer and staff leadership at all levels of the organization that provides mutual support for their respective roles.

    Community Participation
    The Arc works toward and believes in the community imperative: that all people have the fundamental moral, civil and constitutional rights to live, learn, work, play and worship in safe and healthy communities of their choosing. The Arc has responsibility to ensure the safety and well being of individuals.

    Diversity
    The Arc values and insists upon diversity in its leadership and membership. The Arc actively pursues and welcomes diverse groups (including but not limited to race, ethnicity, religion, age, geographic location, sexual orientation, gender and level of disability).

    Integrity and Excellence
    The Arc conducts its business with integrity. The Arc reflects quality and excellence in all its work.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    And if used badly?
    [shudder]
    Emotional manipulation is the main one that comes to mind. Pretending to serve the bigger good while being self-serving, guilt-tripping other people into doing what you want, manipulating people to feed your own emotional needs. I am an aux Fe user but apart from unhealthy Te users people that I tend to butt heads with the most are unhealthy primary Fe users. I know the function very well and easily recognise it but am also very susceptible to its effects ("Of course I want to help someone who is in need!") so in order to protect myself I immediately have to create distance or put up a wall if a primary Fe-user tries to guilt-trip or manipulate me into doing something "selfless" that in reality only serves them.

  7. #67
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    The world would look like as if it is made purely of expressed ISTJs and INTJs. (if we preusme that it would be able to function)





    Just a thought.



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    To me as a big Fe user this Te society sounds repellent, very cold and sterile with many sharp edges, no one there to fix a meal for the hungry or prepare a warm bed for the weary, almost as if someone had removed all the mothering and nurturing instincts from the earth.

    My worry would be what happens to those that are not able to live up to the Te standards of the group (as you said, the sick, old, and dying), would Fi really be enough, how quickly would it take action? Fe is like the grease that makes things run smoothly in society, if used well it will gloss over the sharp edges, restore the hurting, include the outsiders, connect seemingly incompatible people. Pure Te leads to the survival of the fittest, without some Fe mixed in somewhere there wouldn't be many people left for Te to set goals for. (I have studied "Stalinism" at university and to me that is one Te-leader whose society has gone horribly wrong. During every lecture my tutor would talk about another few millions that had died because of some man-made disaster, like the huge famine after the Soviets forcefully introduced Collectivisation, the purges, the Second World War etc.)
    Well there's the famous quote of Stalin's of one death being a tragedy, but a million being merely a statistic.

    Interesting points though about the nature of a Te society, and adds onto some meditations I've been having concerning the typological correlations between political ideologies. While it seems here that while Stalinism relied on themes commonly associated with Te, I have noticed that Nazism by contrast tended to rely on themes commonly associated with Fe more - especially with its concept of the Volk community that transcends any class, regional, religious etc. divisions. And the cult of death and sacrifice for the greater community was commonly invoked, as exemplifed in the Hitler Youth slogans: "You are nothing–your Volk is everything!"; "Germany must live even though we must die."

  9. #69
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Just one thing, in some cases, I'm not telling them to take responsibility for themselves...But for others to take responsibility for people who need to be helped. For example, I once worked at a charity that helped employ disabled individuals in light clerical work. The environment itself didn't have a lot in place to take care of them in a nurturing way. One problem I began to notice is that some of these people were walking home after work.. one guy in particular made a fairly long trek to a bus stop.. and then once on the bus, basically had to ride it's route for a couple of hours before getting home (I had asked him about this stuff btw.. and when he told me I thought it sucked..My F put myself in his place.. he didn't have much time for himself once he got home. Work, work, work.. ride a bus.. go home, eat.. go to sleep.. work, work, work. Meh). So I started giving him rides. And then I started wondering why I was the one with this responsibility. I got a little selfish and pissed off, I admit. I didn't have Fe sustainment. And day after day I started brooding about it.. I looked at my supervisors, even the resident counselor.. the environment seemed kind of careless.. real production oriented, and that counselor didn't do much of anything in general. So I took it up with my boss, and showed her how pissed off I was.. like "why aren't you doing this?" and why isn't he [the counselor] doing something.. etc.. I think I embarassed her, but she and that counselor both started setting up an option for a van to pick people up and give them rides. I was relieved.. I didn't want do it.. I had enough in me to call people on it though, and make them do it. So if I'm instructing anyone, I was telling some others to be a little more concerned/F-like. I'm not good at telling people to be Te like.
    So in blue is your Fi wanting to help...you mirrored his immediate pain, you assisted.

    In Green in selfish Fi. Fi can only hurt for so long before it has to turn itself off...

    In Red is the REALLY sweet stuff. That isnt you using Te on the person. That is you taking using Te on the Te users....The ones in control. "The man". You recognized an issue that was causing other pain, you remedied the immediate pain best you could, then you want back to the Te doms and demanded they change the situation.

    And they did.

    THIS is why Fi users will speak up and fight against "The man" sometimes quite loudly. Te users, to be honest, dont seem to hurt others maliciously, but more obliviously. Displays of Fi emotive protest serve as a way to educate the Te users that the current system needs to change as it is hurting others. Typically, the hurt reduces the efficiency of the system...thus it serves the goals of the Te doms to make the change to increase system productivity.

    Now one little FP fire alarm complaining and fighting "the man" is a one off, one individuals Fi values...when you get a crowd of them...you are now coming close to an Fe like rule of some sort in that all of those Fi users agree that what you are doing violates their values....thus the Te doms listen and change...

    Fi users serve as checks and balances against Te users. Fi users are a feedback loop...a very direct one as needed...(we get kinda loud! )

    (Protean I suspect the arc mission statement reflects our current society which is a combo of Fi and Fe, thus it would be hard to piece apart, especially since many common Fi values are the same as common Fe values.)

    (Satine, think towards a small mobile band of hunter-gathers and how that might be much better suited to Ti/Fe....superb in that prey is always shared as on every hunt, no specific hunter can be certain of a kill. Thus they must share reciprocally always. Also Ti users are highly competitive...as skills must be constantly sharpened so that each hunter is at peak performance to insure survival of the group)

  10. #70
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Keep in mind that if the world had no Fe, Ti would also not exist. So our types would be halved.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

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