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  1. #51
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Without Fe, we would have less cohesion as a species. That would mean we're less likely to form clans together and only tend to our immediate friends and relatives, instead of stand together. We'd care for one another but from a distance, with the exception of those select few we have bonded with through Fi.

    Te might take over and try to lead the species to their purposes, but doing so would probably make the world very efficient but also very cold to live in. We'd also be a lot more vulnerable. The bigger a group, the more you're protected.


    It would be kinda like with cats, the only reason to get together is a common source of food, and to manage not killing each other over it they do this thing called 'timesharing'. I'm there when you're not and vice versa. Appointments. If I don't like you I get to avoid you in a civil way. If you're attacked as a cat, even while in a colony, you're on your own. You're also on your own for food, even if you're injured (unless you're a kitten or something). You have the freedom to go and do as you please, as long as you don't get in another cats way,but also the risks that freedom entails.

    Dogs click together. They have a hierarchy, which leads to pecking order, which also allows for standing together when one member is threatened, and caring for a wounded member of the pack. You do however have to follow the leaders cues and know your place, but it allows for a feeling of being part of something and it provides protection.


    Without Fe, you get a cat society, and we as a species are less protected. And we do not have the weapons and flexibility a cat has to get herself out of every situation
    Speak for yourself!
    *sharpens claws*

    Excellent post, Satine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #52
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    female - fe = male
    Actually, "female" - "fe" = "mal"

    And "mal" means "bad" ... so it would be a bad thing.

  3. #53
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Morgan, what would a world without Te/Fi look like? A pure Ti/Fe world?

    Given the two choices- a Te/Fi world or a Ti/Fe world...in which would women have more freedom?

  4. #54
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    I work there.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Satine have you ever engaged in a Te bond with another? It seems like an odd idea...Fi bonds and Fe bonds, sure..but watch the NTPs...they talk about Ti bonds. They will bond over ideas.

    A Te bond seems to be this odd mutual agreement to work together towards a common goal among Te users.... They are hard wired to identify objectives, appoint a strong leader, establish hierarchy based upon competence, then forge ahead to reach those goals.

    Words like integrity, loyalty, hard working, taking one for the team...these are ways Te forms social cohesion. It isnt always pretty on the surface. It can appear harsh, cold, and force each person to self-sufficiency. If you are on a Te team and you are lazy or you fuck up, you will be called out on the spot. Not really a social rebuke but almost like you end up getting measured against the standard, we address how you have failed, then send you back to try again. If you excel, you will be called out into the spotlight as an individual. Te leaders tend to be very good at highlighting their individual stars on a team.

    It is kinds like all Te users have a ground in Fi values of pulling their fair share and not cheating. If you do not work, you do not eat, seems to be the process. The Te users will also work the longest hours, and push themselves very hard.

    Thus through these mutual Te bonds of respect you actually establish social cohesion...just a very different flavor from Fe social cohesion...

    I would agree that emotional closeness would only be shared with those closest to you. However I would suggest the weakest in the group-the very sick, old and dying would also be cared for as Fi will help the one hurting the most...not the one it has social bonds to already...
    To me as a big Fe user this Te society sounds repellent, very cold and sterile with many sharp edges, no one there to fix a meal for the hungry or prepare a warm bed for the weary, almost as if someone had removed all the mothering and nurturing instincts from the earth.

    My worry would be what happens to those that are not able to live up to the Te standards of the group (as you said, the sick, old, and dying), would Fi really be enough, how quickly would it take action? Fe is like the grease that makes things run smoothly in society, if used well it will gloss over the sharp edges, restore the hurting, include the outsiders, connect seemingly incompatible people. Pure Te leads to the survival of the fittest, without some Fe mixed in somewhere there wouldn't be many people left for Te to set goals for. (I have studied "Stalinism" at university and to me that is one Te-leader whose society has gone horribly wrong. During every lecture my tutor would talk about another few millions that had died because of some man-made disaster, like the huge famine after the Soviets forcefully introduced Collectivisation, the purges, the Second World War etc.)

  6. #56
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    To me as a big Fe user this Te society sounds repellent, very cold and sterile with many sharp edges, no one there to fix a meal for the hungry or prepare a warm bed for the weary, almost as if someone had removed all the mothering and nurturing instincts from the earth.

    My worry would be what happens to those that are not able to live up to the Te standards of the group (as you said, the sick, old, and dying), would Fi really be enough, how quickly would it take action? Fe is like the grease that makes things run smoothly in society, if used well it will gloss over the sharp edges, restore the hurting, include the outsiders, connect seemingly incompatible people. Pure Te leads to the survival of the fittest, without some Fe mixed in somewhere there wouldn't be many people left for Te to set goals for. (I have studied "Stalinism" at university and to me that is one Te-leader whose society has gone horribly wrong. During every lecture my tutor would talk about another few millions that had died because of some man-made disaster, like the huge famine after the Soviets forcefully introduced Collectivisation, the purges, the Second World War etc.)
    To be honest, every Fe type I know is more nurturing than I am at least. I have it in me, but it's hard to sustain. A world without them would mean unpredictable Fi sentiments, like my own (and I'm not even a strong Te.. I do care. But I'd be lying if I said I was less self-absorbed). I've been in some work situations where I tried to take care of people being left out, and did my best to show by example, but it was exhausting. I want to help, but I want to make it other people's responsibilities too, and maybe get others to see what I'm seeing. I don't really want the job on my own. In a way, I'm more comfortable fighting some of these issues, the maybe doing my own thing for awhile. Fe types can stick around longer, and do the hard work (Maybe I'm wrong though.. maybe I'm just projecting some of my own lack of nurturing on to Fi).

  7. #57
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I really like this picture Wikipedia uses to represent their Sociology articles:



    To me that's a very accurate (although a little less warm and fuzzy) depiction of Fe.

    One of the things I think about when looking at the picture is how the hell can you untangle that? How can you make all of those lines distinct? I think about granularity and innumerable social interactions and roles we play with each other on a daily basis and who is willing to navigate all that? Explain things that seem "obvious" that people just "do" that there isn't always logic to. Behaviors, beliefs, and attitudes that people just say TOMATO/TOMATOE about but when you look at them from a certain vantage point they do follow predictable paths and rules that are consistent and constant no matter where you are or who you're with.

    It's exhausting and seen as unnecessary. I can look at work structures and the rise of continuing professional education and training and development and how much of it is teaching people skills and emotional intelligence, with lesser emphasis on the mechanics of how to do the actual work you have to do. I'm thinking why is so much energy and resources being focused on teaching people this? I don't think people are as receptive to Fe as believed. It is grease on the wheel and as long as it's running, you don't think about it...you only really notice it when things break down and cease to function. Why promote prosocial behavior when I stay in my house and you stay in yours and we don't have to cross paths except when necessary? What is the quality of those unavoidable interactions? More often than not, it's frustrating which is why people choose to stick to people with whom they've already established themselves and they don't have to go through those "motions" that seem unnecessary and superficial but how many bruised egos, grudges, and resentments are born out of the lack of attention paid to these things?

    I think about how many places I go and how many situations I'm in where I truly feel welcomed and am instantly put at ease...to me they're few and far between. I mean like meeting a group of people I've had limited interactions with before and instantly feeling at home. I had one of those situations happen last weekend and it struck me because it's rare. I went to a happy hour last week and people just broke off into their little groups and never interacted with any of the other people in the larger group. I'm at a new job and they keep saying "get out of your office/cube, don't just hunker down at your desk" and it's not because they want people to be social butterflies, but because they've got hard proof (aka $$$) that when the quality of interaction and communication, when bonds are forged and networks are created then so does the bottom line. A dubious motivation, but the fact remains the same that something important is happening.

    So then you have it (if "it" is Fe...*shrug*) at work on different levels, not just at professionally, but casually as well between family, friends, and SOs. It's easier to point out Fe at work in those detached situations that you can exit after a you put in your eight hours. I think people believe Fe loses steam here, but I don't see that happening at all.

    I've noticed the replies in this thread have tended to steer towards "society" and "civilization" and not examining Fe within the context of intimate relationships, one-on-one relationships, between friends and family. Does Fe just go poof and disappear like a vapor or something? Can people conceive of Fe working on more intimate levels because there is a serious lack of discussion about it. I can't really say it's Fe anymore myself because when I talk to other people about intimacy and the quality of their personal relationships and when I think about what I want for myself, I lose the distinction myself...it's all like "yeah, I've feel that too" and it doesn't matter what functions the other person is using. But it's not unnatural to me and it doesn't feel like I've got to do some huge cognitive switch to go into that mode either. I've always felt that I have at least two sets of tracks running, one public and one private and jumping between the two is something that's relatively easy so I've never really understood what people are saying about inauthenticity because they're both me and it's not disconcerting or odd to go between them. Sometimes I have to have a third or fourth, but there are definitely at least two. It's taken me awhile to grasp that those separate tracks don't exist for everyone and it's still something I have to stop and think about when I see things happening I don't know what to make of.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #58
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    Recently I have been thinking of Fe as detached Fi. Basically we will go into Fi, create those connections, then almost detach and share them with the world. What we attach to is how it makes the other person feel, like a sense of accomplishment that we made a difference. Yes on the surface Fe may seem shallow, but it has to be shallow in that sense. Because of this when in Fe mode you have to hold onto something, else you get swept away with the surface current. Because of this Fe becomes afraid that others will get swept away. It imposes this onto people, because it knows. Other Fe people are comfortable around Fe because they can be Fe, but this Fe values can also be imposed on others to help protect them from this current. The current that others dive down deep to avoid, we will wade by grabbing a hold of different things as we fight it. If we dont find those things to grab ahold of we will get swept away. In comes Se and Ne to find those things to hold onto, Ti and Fi to judge whether we can hold onto it or not and Ni or Si to know how it will respond as we hold onto it.

    Fe is the glue that says we may not be connected but I am still here when you need me. It is family that requires no energy to maintain.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #59
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Protean has beautiful thoughts and I want to come back to them...but I wanted to round this discussion up a bit....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    To me as a big Fe user this Te society sounds repellent, very cold and sterile with many sharp edges, no one there to fix a meal for the hungry or prepare a warm bed for the weary, almost as if someone had removed all the mothering and nurturing instincts from the earth.

    My worry would be what happens to those that are not able to live up to the Te standards of the group (as you said, the sick, old, and dying), would Fi really be enough, how quickly would it take action? Fe is like the grease that makes things run smoothly in society, if used well it will gloss over the sharp edges, restore the hurting, include the outsiders, connect seemingly incompatible people. Pure Te leads to the survival of the fittest, without some Fe mixed in somewhere there wouldn't be many people left for Te to set goals for. (I have studied "Stalinism" at university and to me that is one Te-leader whose society has gone horribly wrong. During every lecture my tutor would talk about another few millions that had died because of some man-made disaster, like the huge famine after the Soviets forcefully introduced Collectivisation, the purges, the Second World War etc.)
    I want to avoid real world events as being Te or Fe as I think they are too mixed to really be good examples. I have a lot of weird thoughts about Fe, Te and communism, but I would not write communism/dictators off as a Te fail or Fe fail in this case.

    (Also, I think an Fe or Te based society could be equally beneficial and stable and equally "good" according to accepted standards. Fe is much more socially caring than Fi, no doubt. Fe is beautiful, authentic, warm, loving and amazing. So this is not about knocking Fe in anyway. But I think Ti requires Fe, Te requires Fi....but each could form a stable society-without the other....depending upon the end goal of that society and what form of resource allocation it takes to survive in particular societies.)

    I would say pure Te or pure Ti leads to survival of the fittest and a total failing of empathic considerations. Te users will physically/intellectually dominate each other and Ti users will endlessly compete to maintain a status quo of sorts. Both would let the weakest die without a second thought.

    However no human is Te or Ti alone (well at least once past 20 ). We grow in feeling functions that connect us emotionally to others around us-either in an Fi or Fe manner. So...even a Te or Ti dom will develop Fi or Fe...and it will modify how they use Te or Ti, even if somewhat subconsciously-their logical choices will be heavily influenced by the Feeling functions, even if they are unaware of it.

    In the above Te society example, Te users tend to be grounded in Fi. They sort of adopt Fi towards the group they are working with-their society in this case. Thus they are interested in what Te actions benefit the group the most...This is why ENTJs will use inf Fi to go down with the sinking ship...they may kill off any given individual as useless, but they are exceptionally devoted to the group as a whole, emotionally...

    Imagine the Te community as a stable agrarian community in which everyone has to work hard to earn their share of food. You keep what you earn, and only share under the worst conditions. There is a static supply and cycle to resource availability. Decisions made by the Te leaders would be motivated by what is the best solution for the community in terms of efficiency and consistancy-which typically translates clearly into maximization of resources for survival. It is harsh.

    Now...a common critique of NFPs...is that we will ignore our close families to help those who are in greater need. Fi pulls us to the weakest of the weak. My ISFJ friend was horrified by this behavior. She is pulled to help those she is closest to.

    If someone needs my help, I dont tend to give sympathy or long term support...but I give very short term support-Fi caring, then give advice about how they can help themselves not get in the situation again-Te. As KDude says below...In this situation I AM NOT nuturing. I am forcing the other person to be accountable for their own actions. To be self sustaining. Only at the very, very bottom of the pile...the very weak, the very old, children, the very poor, do I lessen my expectations of self-supportability and in those cases I do everything I can to care for them...even if it doesnt appear nurturing on the surface. I suspect other Fi users would be more nurturing. I suspect, however that almost always, Fi users will help the stranger who is in great need, over a close family member who is in some need....

    Thus I suspect a Te society would be nurturing of the bottom 5% and the next 10-20% who may be in need would be expected to learn skills and be self accontability...even if they means a lack of nuturing at times....

    harsh harsh harsh. But at the roots based upon devotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    To be honest, every Fe type I know is more nurturing than I am at least. I have it in me, but it's hard to sustain. A world without them would mean unpredictable Fi sentiments, like my own (and I'm not even a strong Te.. I do care. But I'd be lying if I said I was less self-absorbed). I've been in some work situations where I tried to take care of people being left out, and did my best to show by example, but it was exhausting. I want to help, but I want to make it other people's responsibilities too, and maybe get others to see what I'm seeing. I don't really want the job on my own. In a way, I'm more comfortable fighting some of these issues, the maybe doing my own thing for awhile. Fe types can stick around longer, and do the hard work (Maybe I'm wrong though.. maybe I'm just projecting some of my own lack of nurturing on to Fi).

  10. #60
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    If someone needs my help, I dont tend to give sympathy or long term support...but I give very short term support-Fi caring, then give advice about how they can help themselves not get in the situation again-Te.
    Just one thing, in some cases, I'm not telling them to take responsibility for themselves...But for others to take responsibility for people who need to be helped. For example, I once worked at a charity that helped employ disabled individuals in light clerical work. The environment itself didn't have a lot in place to take care of them in a nurturing way. One problem I began to notice is that some of these people were walking home after work.. one guy in particular made a fairly long trek to a bus stop.. and then once on the bus, basically had to ride it's route for a couple of hours before getting home (I had asked him about this stuff btw.. and when he told me I thought it sucked.. My F put myself in his place.. he didn't have much time for himself once he got home. Work, work, work.. ride a bus.. go home, eat.. go to sleep.. work, work, work. Meh). So I started giving him rides. And then I started wondering why I was the one with this responsibility. I got a little selfish and pissed off, I admit. I didn't have Fe sustainment. And day after day I started brooding about it.. I looked at my supervisors, even the resident counselor.. the environment seemed kind of careless.. real production oriented, and that counselor didn't do much of anything in general. So I took it up with my boss, and showed her how pissed off I was.. like "why aren't you doing this?" and why isn't he [the counselor] doing something.. etc.. I think I embarassed her, but she and that counselor both started setting up an option for a van to pick people up and give them rides. I was relieved.. I didn't want do it.. I had enough in me to call people on it though, and make them do it. So if I'm instructing anyone, I was telling some others to be a little more concerned/F-like. I'm not good at telling people to be Te like.

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