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  1. #441
    Senior Member Sesshoumaru's Avatar
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    First of all, what a war zone! I hope I don't interrupt you from firing your weapons at each other! But anyways... A world without Fe would be my ideal, No lies, no fake to help others, not conforming, we would probably be true to ourselves and to everyone else! Fi is what makes us "human", what you really feel inside, but Fe is validated from an external source, meaning that it wants to conform to the others, that I could actually say it's a subordinate of an Fi (socially speaking), it just follows! Then this proves Fe a lie itself... And one of my mottos is: if you're going to mess around with feelings, you'd better stick to yours and not to the others'. Anyway... I find feelings disgusting and kind of unreal to logic and to make decisions (when I really need to make them...)
    "Please don't have children, overpopulation is the real fuss of this world"-Composed by me...
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  2. #442
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    A world without Fe would be my ideal, No lies, no fake to help others, not conforming, we would probably be true to ourselves and to everyone else! Fi is what makes us "human"...
    Kay, now go find a valid description of Fe that mentions all the things you suggest it is and shows you're not actually talking out your ass

  3. #443
    Senior Member Sesshoumaru's Avatar
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    Then again... Quote complete posts...

    Extraverted Feeling
    Extraverted Feeling Function

    Well, the connections are deeper... Just so that you know, good politicians are dominant Fe users, or dominant Te users as well... Love to use things to lie to people and make them have faith in them to change... Besides, you're missing the point... Fe, because of it's external validation, remains untrue to the self, which in many occasions, is different from the collective consciousness... It seeks to fit... And to fit often involves being false... When you really fit, then you're using your Fi, not Fe, because you would be yourself.
    "Please don't have children, overpopulation is the real fuss of this world"-Composed by me...
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  4. #444
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    Then again... Quote complete posts...

    Extraverted Feeling
    Extraverted Feeling Function
    Someone with Fe isn't devoid of self. Your links say nothing of what you're suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    Just so that you know, good politicians are dominant Fe users, or dominant Te users as well
    There have been politicians of all types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    Besides, you're missing the point... Fe, because of it's external validation, remains untrue to the self, which in many occasions, is different from the collective consciousness... It seeks to fit...
    I'm not missing your point, I'm challenging the conclusion you have come up with. Fe seeks external values, but that does not conclude that it must be untrue to the self.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    And to fit often involves being false... When you really fit, then you're using your Fi, not Fe, because you would be yourself.
    And what you are here doing is adding value judgements to what Fe is by saying it's about lying and fakeness.

    You are making the mistake many other people do, they attempt to explain to others what is wrong with something they don't know about. Don't assume, ask. And while you're at it read the thread, this has been raise many times.

  5. #445
    Senior Member Sesshoumaru's Avatar
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    Like I said, the connections are deeper... It can't be just put in the words the article is... You have to do a little criticizing of your own... Now, politicians have been of all types, I know that (I didn't say there haven't), and it's not the issue here, what I posted there is that the good ones are one or the other... For the third one... It MAY be different to the true self, otherwise, I would have had stated "it's always untrue to self". For the fourth... When I don't know an issue, I remain silent, but right now I know what I'm talking about, that's why I'm telling you this.

    I'm not assuming, I'm stating a deeper principle here...

    And then again... Like I said before... I don't want to mess up in your war...
    Last edited by Sesshoumaru; 08-20-2010 at 04:00 AM. Reason: Missing part
    "Please don't have children, overpopulation is the real fuss of this world"-Composed by me...
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  6. #446
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    Like I said, the connections are deeper... It can't be just put in the words the article is... You have to do a little criticizing of your own... Now, politicians have been of all types, I know that (I didn't say there haven't), and it's not the issue here, what I posted there is that the good ones are one or the other... For the third one... It MAY be different to the true self, otherwise, I would have had stated "it's always untrue to self". For the fourth... When I don't know an issue, I remain silent, but right now I know what I'm talking about, that's why I'm telling you this.

    I'm not assuming, I'm stating a deeper principle here...

    And then again... Like I said before... I don't want to mess up in your war...
    hehe, this post totally reaffirms my confirmation of you as INTP.

    anyway, in all friendliness, let's debate a bit...

    A world without Fe would be my ideal, No lies,
    i can give Fi reasons for lying, too - for example, lying if you feel like the lie will better support your ultimate cause. occasionally i'll lie to get around rules, if they clash with my principles. that's a pretty Fi motivation.

    no fake to help others,
    any way you look at it, you help someone else because it benefits you in some way - anything from simple feelings of altruism all the way to monetary compensation. plus, Fi "fake" help (ie, not for the sake of the person themself) could be not liking a person at all but still helping them anyway because you believe it's the right thing to do.

    not conforming,
    possibly true in terms of social behavior alone, but this really has nothing to do with motivation, which is, in my opinion, what makes something good or bad. what i mean is, there are a lot of different reasons to act in a similar way to those in your environment.

    we would probably be true to ourselves and to everyone else!
    this sounds rhetorical, but i mean it seriously: when is anyone ever "not themselves"? it's a logical fallacy. regardless of how i act, i am being true to myself. there is always an internal reason why we decide to act against a value, even if we don't want that reason to be seen as part of our identity.

    Fi is what makes us "human", what you really feel inside,
    to an extent, yes, but i would also say that i am not only my inner feelings and values, and my feelings and values do not fully define who i am.

    but Fe is validated from an external source,
    a person's beliefs and actions must always be internally validated in some way, otherwise they would simply quit believing or doing them, wouldn't you agree? any external action is gonna be validated at some level by either Ti or Fi.

    meaning that it wants to conform to the others,
    just like Fi, it wants to connect with others. one way to do that is to get on the same level as another. conform for the sake of conforming? no. conform for the sake of communication? more likely. but there can be Fi reasons too, like if you believe in the same ideals as the group in question and their reasons for uniformity (representative meaning in ceremonies, for example) - or in trying to get an important message across.

    that I could actually say it's a subordinate of an Fi (socially speaking), it just follows!
    odd then that generally FJs are more natural leaders than FPs! even if Fe as a function did have a tendency to follow others, Fe never works alone. it is moderated by Ni or Si. i would say that Ne has a tendency to latch onto whatever is in the environment, but given Fi moderation (not to mention the rest of the spectrum of functions), i'm not just a leaf being blown about by the wind.

    Then this proves Fe a lie itself...
    i don't think a cognitive function in and of itself can even be a lie... that'd be like saying verbal fluency is a lie... it's just not really something that's eligible to be a lie?

    And one of my mottos is: if you're going to mess around with feelings, you'd better stick to yours and not to the others'. Anyway... I find feelings disgusting and kind of unreal to logic and to make decisions (when I really need to make them...)
    lol well then i dunno why you're making yourself out to be an expert on Feeling! no offense, but if you can't see far enough into it to grasp the emotional aspects of Feeling as more than disgusting and unreal (emotion is actually quite rational if you think about it, being a biochemical mechanism), then i'm not really sure you're in a place to be able to make an adequate value judgement (ie, Feeling judgement) of Feeling.

  7. #447
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshoumaru View Post
    Fe, because of it's external validation, remains untrue to the self, which in many occasions, is different from the collective consciousness... It seeks to fit...
    This is true of all e functions. But the "untrue to the self" part is a misrepresentation. All e functions are, prima facie, untrue to, which is to say, not in accordance with, wait for it.... i functions. But that's just prima facie. In actual operation people, if they're being "people", mix i and e (and S and N and F and T) content together to arrive at their choices. Actually, if Fe people really did spend all their time bending themselves into accord with pre-established social norms, they'd rightly be called only semi-conscious as individuals. They wouldn't be bringing to bear their own subjective content. They wouldn't actually be making decisions. Is this in fact how they operate?

    And to fit often involves being false... When you really fit, then you're using your Fi, not Fe, because you would be yourself.
    To fit, one may from time to time cause the cramped space that's been set out for you to be changed. It seems like mature Fe (like mature Te) would be at least as creative as conformative.

    So, embrace your Fe.

    Actually, no, one embraces their Fi. If it's Fe, perhaps you have to embrace a neighbour. Free hugs, INTPs! Off you go, out into the world, and start delivering those hugs! Practice on a tree.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  8. #448
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    He (u) is so submerged in "function-talk", defending the validity and effectiveness of evaluations using singular functions, that there was no acknowledgement of what Pitseleh actually shared.

    ...


    It felt, to me, a weird discord in response by uumlau towards Pitseleh's post, but I do believe he was just using her post as a jump-off point for his own thoughts, and it was nothing against consciously trying to dismiss her, or her experiences. And, I dunno if he even thought on this level of evaluation: the collective sympathy/emphathy phenomenon?

    - Fe/Fi difference in reaction? Or just differing levels of social courtesies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I was a little but I didn't take it personally. Ironically, I was a little surprised by Protean's response and was seriously wondering what I should be feeling and thinking. "Should I take offense to his post or approach his post intellectually?" Her post was much appreciated by me nonetheless. Based on Uumlau's post history, I figured his motive was truly not to bait and offend people so I didn't hold anything against him. He and I are on good terms, FWIW.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I feel like the invisible woman here at the moment.

    I asked Pitseleh myself in this thread about whether that was true or a joke. The threw me off, just like Jag making comments that are falsehoods but putting a winky beside them. So, I asked.

    I didn't think uumlau "blew it off" - if I can be so bold as to assume he missed that as well, just as I did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Yeah, I somewhat regret saying that because it was a really dark comment but it was kind of like saying, "Do you guys seriously think Fe or Fi is starting out at mistrust? Isn't life experience an important factor in determining stuff like that?" Plus, I had been thinking about trust issues outside of MBTI earlier. I was thinking of deleting it but I had to go do some errands and Uumlau made his post before I got back.
    Pitseleh, thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. It is much appreciated.

    I read your statement as saying exactly what I bolded, above. I hope that my reply conveyed that I heard that message. Life experience is an important factor; the functional discussion is simply an attempt to figure out to what degree the functions play a role.

    W/r to the emotional content of the comment, I didn't address it directly because I didn't believe you were asking for sympathy, but simply using the extremity of the example to make your point.

    Also, I am somewhat uncomfortable with expressions of sympathy, because I generally don't take them well, myself: they feel condescending to me ("Oh, poor baby!"), rather than supportive. I have to make myself smile and accept them as they are intended. Because of this, I have no idea what I could say that would express support without condescension, that would make it clear that I appreciate what you shared, and even now I don't. However, in my time, I've learned that a hug is often appropriate:



    No words to take out of context and wonder what they "really mean."

  9. #449
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Isn't what's referred to as Fe in type theory also something that "makes us human"? Humans are social primates. Fe is like picking bugs out of your best friend's fur to help her relax, or showing your teeth to a rival to make them understand you intend to compete.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #450
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    I'd like to give an analogy I recently thought of to compare Fi and Fe. (Or any other Jungian functions, but this is the bone of contention, here.)

    We keep on trying to say what Fi "is" or Fe "is." Well, they aren't "is"-able, not in the way we usually think. I tend to fall into the functional language that is common on the forum, because I regard it as shorthand for a much more complex concept that doesn't admit any verb I can think of in the English language.

    Fe and Fi might best be thought of as "frames." These frames, in turn, determine how one perceives this, that or the other thing. These different frames can look at the same thing, and talk about the same thing, but what ends up being seen and said sounds completely different, even if, for example, people of both frames are equally moved by an emotional situation.

    The analogy:

    According the the special theory of relativity, how one perceives lengths and distances and the flow of time, and even simultaneity itself, is different. Let's say we have a "stationary frame" and call it Fi. And a "moving frame" and call it Fe.

    Now, according to the theory, one can have identical rulers and clocks in both frames, yet still take different measurements of the same thing. The Fi frame sees the Fe frame as "shorter" in the direction of motion, and perceives the Fe clock as going "slower" than Fi's own clock. If there are two events, A and B, that happen at different points in space, it is possible for the Fi frame to measure that A happens before B, while Fe "erroneously" claims that B happens before A.

    It gets better, though: let's re-label what we called "stationary" and "in motion" The Fe frame feels just as stationary as the Fi frame. Moreover, the Fe frame sees the Fi clock going slower. And the Fe frame sees that the Fi lengths are "shorter" than the Fe lengths in the direction of motion.

    So you get arguments like:

    Fi: Your clock is slower.
    Fe: Pardon me, but it is your clock that is slower, not mine.
    Fi: What are you talking about? It's self evident that your clock is slower, AND you're shorter, too!
    Fe: Who's calling who shorter, pipsqueak?! You don't have a clue what you're talking about. You're shorter!
    Fi: *fumes* How can you be so unreasonable?
    Fe: Yeah, right, as if *I* am the one being unreasonable.

    Sound familiar?

    There's a way out of it, but it's difficult. Each needs to refigure things out in the others' frame. In special relativity, this is easy, because Einstein (through Lorentz) gave us the formula. We can do the math, and prove that, after all, neither the observer in the Fi frame, nor the one in the Fe frame, is being unreasonable.

    But when dealing with MBTI/Jung, there's no math we can do. We each need to make an effort to bridge the gap ourselves, to put ourselves in the "other frame," if only for a little while. Our only clues come from those in the other frame, to whom we need to listen closely and hopefully we manage to find a way to apply both.

    When we're doing it right, I believe it would sound something like, "How can that be true? How are you perceiving things such that you would come to that conclusion?" as opposed to, "There's no way that can be true."

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