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  1. #281
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    No offense to anyone intended, but this is a ridiculous question and it should not have as many serious replies as it does. Precisely what are you changing about people that would yield the result of there being "no Fe" ? Its just GONE without anything to supplement its status? What else are you fundamentally altering about people/brains to get the result of "no Fe"? Seeing as functions work cohesively/together and opponent to one another, are the other cognitive functions going to be fundamentally altered by there being no Fe?


    I guess its a "fun question" but to me it's akin to asking "what would the universe be like without the Carbon atom"? It's like Uhhhhhmmm......precisely what did you change about the universe to produce the result of there being no carbon? Did you fundamentally change the nuclear forces and mechanisms for ALL atoms, or perhaps you wiped out all atoms in series 14 of the periodic table? What happens to the characteristics of Nitrogen and Oxygen when you pull the existence plug on carbon?

    There's absolutely no way to answer such a question unless you elaborate on what you are changing in the system to produce said result.

  2. #282
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    I remember that thread...

  3. #283
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I'm still disappointed that these questions/thoughts were never addressed Only because I think this entire post is awesome and reflects many of the ways I look at things. Well, not only that: the fact that it just kinda fell by the wayside seems to indicate protean wasn't exactly 'heard' or acknowledged/understood either -- there was no interaction/dialogue related to this post (well, that wasn't soon deleted).
    I pretty much agree with it as well; it's a great post. I created a whole metaphor to encapsulate my thoughts on the topic!

    No one commented directly on that metaphor post either (except Z's tl;dr ) ... I don't assume though that it went unnoticed and unappreciated simply because no discussion arose from it.

    What you were hoping to see, cascadeco? What part jumps out at you?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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  4. #284
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    This is true; I have noticed Ni tends to dig in deeper, and stick on topic and want to delve fully. However, I don't think it's strictly Ni, as I have also noticed that NTJ's *tend* not to respond to NiFe type responses. As a general trend.
    I notice that too. I notice particularly when I do it and I know I'm not responding in a way that'll work well for the other person if at all. It's an issue IRL too. Lo and behold, unfortunately, I believe it does have a considerable basis in function perspectives: we point our truth meters in opposite directions and assess feeling in different places. INTJs and INFJs can see a lot of similarity in one another, but what we actually get up to on the inside and outside veers off in different directions. It ends up being hard work sticking to the other person's topic and method.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  5. #285
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    I'm copy-pasting this list of histrionic traits knowing very well that I am in no position to make any diagnosis on anybody. But I think it would be a pity for the mutual understanding of introverted and extraverted Feeling functions if personality-displays that are, as it were, not typical for any of them but for a personality disorder, where taken for a display of standard Fi-ness.

    As an ENFP it has bothered me to observe in many threads for several months, that O has excused her self with Fi and assumed authority on what ENFP-hood is. I do not feel represented.
    Do you believe that (if this were accurate) she is therefore not warranted a voice?

    Why haven't you shared your thoughts too in those threads? It would be a pleasure to hear your POV.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #286
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Oh, bleh, I'm about to retire for the evening, but main concepts:

    -Unanswered question re. whether it is perceived that Fe doesn't understand people who think differently than them, which leads to:
    -General misconception of Fe being wholly group centric with little capacity to appreciate and accept individual differences (this rather goes against the NiFe's I know in real life), and conflating Fe to equal group and Fi to equal self when in reality both dom-F's desire harmony and irl, in group settings, I don't honestly see a huge amount of difference regarding this, in terms of desire of all to work together smoothly and without conflict -- to reach a consensus/common understanding. And both are (or can be) highly intuitive in a 1:1 setting and appreciative and respectful of individual differences. Perhaps in different ways, but I find the Fe/Fi Group/Self split false in some ways.
    -The tendency by some to attribute certain behaviors or responses to a specific function or type when in fact the behavior could be enacted by a variety of other types or functions. This tends to be the major stumbling block in any Fe/Fi discussion, as you inevitably get into sympathy/empathy (just as one of many examples), people tend to want to attribute one to Fe and one to Fi, when in fact it's not nearly as black and white as that, and an individual ENTJ in fact might have a helluva lot more empathy (or sympathy) than an INFP or ENFJ...etc (as another dumb example).
    -When sticking to pure cognitive functions you are removing the context itself (as per protean, a few examples being office politics, fear-based work environment, indirect/direct communications, Interaction Styles, economic climate) --- in effect you are quite potentially drastically tunnel-visioning yourself into seeing through only a cognitive-function lens, when in reality you may be totally warped in that because you may not know that Person A is bipolar or addictive or narcissitic, or has severe trust issues, or is going through bankruptcy or a divorce, or has insanely low confidence so enacts a facade and seems to be an mbti type he is not, so labeling his behavior as 'totally Te' might be a blatant falsehood as there could be a myriad of other reasons for his behavior... etc etc).

    Blech..I hate getting on a soapbox.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #287
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I notice that too. I notice particularly when I do it and I know I'm not responding in a way that'll work well for the other person if at all. It's an issue IRL too. Lo and behold, unfortunately, I believe it does have a considerable basis in function perspectives: we point our truth meters in opposite directions and assess feeling in different places. INTJs and INFJs can see a lot of similarity in one another, but what we actually get up to on the inside and outside veers off in different directions. It ends up being hard work sticking to the other person's topic and method.
    I let Z know this, but I'm somewhat relieved that you guys are acknowledging this, as I was starting to think I was blowing it out of proportion or was imagining it, to a degree. I guess I feel like I try to 'dialogue' with you guys, to an extent, but if/when I periodically don't get much in response, if anything, I have sort of ceased doing it. At least online. irl some of my closest friends though are NTJ's.

    Interesting to hear that you both note and acknowledge this.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Interesting to hear that you both note and acknowledge this.
    Agreed.


  9. #289
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Oh, bleh, I'm about to retire for the evening, but main concepts:

    -Unanswered question re. whether it is perceived that Fe doesn't understand people who think differently than them, which leads to:
    First, I don't think any of us can claim to fully understand anyone else. But I think there are some types (generalizing) that seem "harder" for me to read.

    Does Fe not understand ...? I don't think that's a fair statement, no. That being said, I think the same Ti - Te dynamic exists within Fi - Fe. Te says: "This is the way things are; these are the facts". Ti says: "There could be facts you are missing, things you're not seeing; how can you simply accept this as truth?"

    If you are looking for a black and white yes or no, I can't offer an answer - I think it applies more to each individual than the generic group of Fe users. There are healthy and unhealthy people in general.

    -General misconception of Fe being wholly group centric with little capacity to appreciate and accept individual differences (this rather goes against the NiFe's I know in real life), and conflating Fe to equal group and Fi to equal self when in reality both dom-F's desire harmony and irl, in group settings, I don't honestly see a huge amount of difference regarding this, in terms of desire of all to work together smoothly and without conflict -- to reach a consensus/common understanding.
    Agree; but I equate harmony more with enneagram and type 9 in particular. Personally I don't view Fe and Fi as group vs self. I do think Fe users can be stroked and reassured by a group dynamic in a way Fi users are generally not, however. I loved the light example from the INFJ thread ... the combination of colours. All the lights of a group shine together to see what colour will be made vs each person's light existing without this merging.

    And both are (or can be) highly intuitive in a 1:1 setting and appreciative and respectful of individual differences.
    Agree

    Perhaps in different ways, but I find the Fe/Fi Group/Self split false in some ways.
    *watches the expansion with interest*

    -The tendency by some to attribute certain behaviors or responses to a specific function or type when in fact the behavior could be enacted by a variety of other types or functions.
    Agree; check out that cool cake metaphor earlier in this thread.

    This tends to be the major stumbling block in any Fe/Fi discussion, as you inevitably get into sympathy/empathy, people tend to want to attribute one to Fe and one to Fi, when in fact it's not nearly as black and white as that, and an individual ENTJ in fact might have a helluva lot more empathy (or sympathy) than an INFP or ENFJ...etc.
    Agree; it can be very circumstantial

    -When sticking to pure cognitive functions you are removing the context itself (as per protean, a few examples being office politics, fear-based work environment, indirect/direct communications, Interaction Styles, economic climate) --- in effect you are quite potentially drastically tunnel-visioning yourself into seeing through only a cognitive-function lens, when in reality you may be totally warped in that because you may not know that Person A is bipolar or addictive or narcissitic, or has severe trust issues, or has insanely low confidence so enacts a facade and seems to be an mbti type he is not, so labeling his behavior as 'totally Te' might be a blatant falsehood as there could be a myriad of other reasons for his behavior... etc etc).
    I personally agree, but the NT's (in general) will tell you that of course there are exceptions, they are not trying to put people in boxes, they are only trying to track and log tendencies, not absolutes.

    I appreciate you posting all this cascadeco - thanks for sharing your thoughts.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #290
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post

    I'm beginning to think it's not so much functions as response patterns. I'm going to take an avoidance perspective on this one, in the realm of shame vs. guilt:

    What we're calling "Fe" can manifest itself as an aversion to shame. The person seeing the world through the filter of Fe has an intense shame response, and consequently seeks to avoid it through socially acceptable behavior and a reliance on the esteem of others. The downside is that without an anchoring sense of guilt to pursue moral behavior, a person with this worldview can act immorally, as long as the group approves. When this is unstable, the "shunning" behavior manifests, as that person doesn't want to bear the transferred shame of association.

    On the other hand, what we're calling "Fi" is primarily an aversion to guilt. The guilt response is far stronger than the shame response, and thus, the person seeks to avoid guilt through the strong adherence to a personal code of ethics. The downside is that these ethics need not be based on external reality, since guilt is a deeply personal experience, and so can seem capricious and random. Along with this, when unstable, there can be a deep aversion to admitting responsibility, since this necessarily involves a guilt response.

    Ladies and gentlemen, have at it.
    Nicely done.

    Very astute.
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