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  1. #271
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I'm beginning to think it's not so much functions as response patterns. I'm going to take an avoidance perspective on this one, in the realm of shame vs. guilt:

    What we're calling "Fe" can manifest itself as an aversion to shame. The person seeing the world through the filter of Fe has an intense shame response, and consequently seeks to avoid it through socially acceptable behavior and a reliance on the esteem of others. The downside is that without an anchoring sense of guilt to pursue moral behavior, a person with this worldview can act immorally, as long as the group approves. When this is unstable, the "shunning" behavior manifests, as that person doesn't want to bear the transferred shame of association.

    On the other hand, what we're calling "Fi" is primarily an aversion to guilt. The guilt response is far stronger than the shame response, and thus, the person seeks to avoid guilt through the strong adherence to a personal code of ethics. The downside is that these ethics need not be based on external reality, since guilt is a deeply personal experience, and so can seem capricious and random. Along with this, when unstable, there can be a deep aversion to admitting responsibility, since this necessarily involves a guilt response.

    Ladies and gentlemen, have at it.
    You can feel shameful in private.

    I feel shame, without anyone knowing, just like I feel guilt.

    However, for me to feel embarrassed - there must be a public there. Someone's eyes that watch.

  2. #272
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    You can feel shameful in private.

    I feel shame, without anyone knowing, just like I feel guilt.

    However, for me to feel embarrassed - there must be a public there. Someone's eyes that watch.
    Right - embarrassment is public shame. That's why it's worse than simply being ashamed of oneself.

  3. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's you. It's not me. We differ. End of story.


    that's obvious though, isn't it? i'm trying to demonstrate my understanding of the situation to show how someone else may be interpreting it.

    and i mean my questions honestly. if i need to reach out to someone else by trying to divine whether or not they are actually hurting, then isn't it also reasonable to expect them to also reach out to me by trying to let me know what is going on inside? it's what poki was saying before about reaching out to attempt to communicate in a way that the other person will more easily understand.

    -

    anyway yeah... i feel more guilt than shame. i don't really feel much shame. i feel embarrassed, or stupid, but not fundamentally ashamed of who i am or what i've done. i don't really understand shame, but for me guilt manifests in wanting to help make reparations for any hurt i caused. it's not like i can take what i did back, so i'd rather just go about helping fix things and understanding what i did so i can try to prevent it for next time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    According to cultural anthropologist Ruth Benedict, shame is a violation of cultural or social values while guilt feelings arise from violations of one's internal values. Thus, it is possible to feel ashamed of thought or behavior that no one knows about and to feel guilty about actions that gain the approval of others.

    Psychoanalyst Helen B. Lewis argued that "The experience of shame is directly about the self, which is the focus of evaluation. In guilt, the self is not the central object of negative evaluation, but rather the thing done is the focus."[5] Similarly, Fossum and Mason say in their book Facing Shame that "While guilt is a painful feeling of regret and responsibility for one's actions, shame is a painful feeling about oneself as a person."[6] Following this line of reasoning, Psychiatrist Judith Lewis Herman concludes that "Shame is an acutely self-conscious state in which the self is 'split,' imagining the self in the eyes of the other; by contrast, in guilt the self is unified."
    yeah. defining it like this, i feel more guilt.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if i need to reach out to someone else by trying to divine whether or not they are actually hurting, then isn't it also reasonable to expect them to also reach out to me by trying to let me know what is going on inside?
    Yes. Totally reasonable. Communication's a two-way street.

    My approach has typically been to hypothesize about what the other person is feeling and ask probing questions from there, rather than speculating and acting on that speculating. More information about a situation is always good.

    A person's pissed? Well, that's usually pretty obvious. Pissed about what? Well, you can guess based upon context. Is your guess going to be absolutely accurate? No. So, ask questions and treat the situation lightly.

    Will probing always work? No.


    I default to bridging the gap and attempting to meet others where they are. If we could all make a half-attempt at a habit like that, we'd have more effective communication overall.

  5. #275
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if i need to reach out to someone else by trying to divine whether or not they are actually hurting, then isn't it also reasonable to expect them to also reach out to me by trying to let me know what is going on inside?
    So you have some tarot cards, ay?

  6. #276
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    So you have some tarot cards, ay?


    dowsing rod, lulz

  7. #277
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Re Orobas-drama: I want to tell Protean, Jag etc. that I agree completely with their reading of the phonyness in the situation.

    Histrionic displays of "feelings" are indeed "felt" by the histrionic, but they are felt as a fleeting, shallow and instrumental means to a hidden end: attention (= other people's feelings of pity, praise, admiration, respect, sympathy, fear, submission, affection etc.). Attention is needed as a desperate, neverending quest to fill the void where genuine, grounded feelings should have been, had something not gone wrong in the childhood stabilising of the ego.

    Histrionic displays of "feelings" simulate (in the short run successfully) the outer expressions the sufferers believe to see in others. It's almost like the NLP-stereotype of 'fake-it-till-you-make-it' hope. But most likely HPD-sufferers aren't even aware of the difference from normal emotions, since the disorder is ego-syntonic. They simply don't know any better. Which is why HDP is notoriously hard to cure, like all ego-syntonic disorders.

    HPD is not very common and most people are initially unsuspecting and in good faith when confronted with it. Thus HPD-sufferers can initially make nice and understanding people pay the displayer a lot of attention because we'll assume the displays are genuine and not just (ironically genuine) manipulative fishing for attention to fill their inner void.

    Re Fe and Fi, those nice, understanding providers of a shortlived attention-fix can both be Fi or Fe people of course, though I could speculate that Fe-people are somewhat quicker to see through the smoke screens and react to being fooled. We Fi'ers tend perhaps to excuse inconsistent and erratic behavior with individual beauty, because this approach to people gives us valuable understanding in 99% of the cases. Only it won't get us anywhere with HPD. Dunno - could there be a Fe-Fi difference here?

    FYI:

    Wikipedia on Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD):

    "Mnemonic:
    A mnemonic that can be used to remember the criteria for histrionic personality disorder is PRAISE ME:

    * P - provocative (or seductive) behavior
    * R - relationships, considered more intimate than they are
    * A - attention, must be at center of
    * I - influenced easily
    * S - speech (style) - wants to impress, lacks detail
    * E - emotional lability, shallowness

    * M - make-up - physical appearance used to draw attention to self
    * E - exaggerated emotions - theatrical

    Characteristics
    People with this disorder are usually able to function at a high level and can be successful socially and professionally. People with histrionic personality disorder usually have good social skills, but they tend to use these skills to manipulate other people and become the center of attention. Furthermore, histrionic personality disorder may affect a person's social or romantic relationships or their ability to cope with losses or failures.

    People with this disorder lack genuine empathy. They start relationships well but tend to falter when depth and durability are needed, alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. They may seek treatment for depression when romantic relationships end, although this is by no means a feature exclusive to this disorder.

    They often fail to see their own personal situation realistically, instead tending to dramatize and exaggerate their difficulties. They may go through frequent job changes, as they become easily bored and have trouble dealing with frustration. Because they tend to crave novelty and excitement, they may place themselves in risky situations. All of these factors may lead to greater risk of developing depression.

    Additional symptoms include:
    * Exhibitionist behavior.
    * Constant seeking of reassurance or approval.
    * Excessive dramatics with exaggerated displays of emotions.
    * Excessive sensitivity to criticism or disapproval.
    * Inappropriately seductive appearance or behavior.
    * Excessive concern with physical appearance.
    * Somatic symptoms, and using these symptoms as a means of garnering attention.
    * A need to be the center of attention.
    * Low tolerance for frustration or delayed gratification.
    * Rapidly shifting emotional states that may appear superficial or exaggerated to others.
    * Tendency to believe that relationships are more intimate than they actually are.
    * Making rash decisions.


    I'm copy-pasting this list of histrionic traits knowing very well that I am in no position to make any diagnosis on anybody. But I think it would be a pity for the mutual understanding of introverted and extraverted Feeling functions if personality-displays that are, as it were, not typical for any of them but for a personality disorder, where taken for a display of standard Fi-ness.

    As an ENFP it has bothered me to observe in many threads for several months, that O has excused her self with Fi and assumed authority on what ENFP-hood is. I do not feel represented.
    Last edited by Heart&Brain; 08-18-2010 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Typos

  8. #278
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna

    Yes. Totally reasonable. Communication's a two-way street.

    My approach has typically been to hypothesize about what the other person is feeling and ask probing questions from there, rather than speculating and acting on that speculating. More information about a situation is always good.

    A person's pissed? Well, that's usually pretty obvious. Pissed about what? Well, you can guess based upon context. Is your guess going to be absolutely accurate? No. So, ask questions and treat the situation lightly.

    Will probing always work? No.

    I default to bridging the gap and attempting to meet others where they are. If we could all make a half-attempt at a habit like that, we'd have more effective communication overall.
    sweet. this sounds reasonable to me.

    i think i try to do something similar IRL, but probably lean less to the questioning side. i think i'll try doing that more.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I'm still disappointed that these questions/thoughts were never addressed Only because I think this entire post is awesome and reflects many of the ways I look at things. Well, not only that: the fact that it just kinda fell by the wayside seems to indicate protean wasn't exactly 'heard' or acknowledged/understood either -- there was no interaction/dialogue related to this post (well, that wasn't soon deleted).

    We've gone from such interesting topics such as all of above, to once again equating Fe solely to Group Harmony and Fi to not caring about the group (in the simplest of terms).
    if there are things in her post that you'd like to see discussed, you could quote the parts of it you want to talk about and start talking about them, instead of implying that the rest of us have disappointed you by not talking about them? i don't mean this in a heated way, it just seems like if you'd like something discussed, you should start the conversation...

    anyway i agree with pretty much everything proteanmix said in that post but i don't really have a huge amount to say about it besides that. it's not out of lack of respect or interest or anything, and i did read it at the time and i re-read it now.

    i think out of everything i particularly agree with her point that communication style can manifest through, but is not determined by, type. i think i communicate in a more Te-like fashion than anything, and if you were to read my creative writing it's pretty intensive Se.

    my dad and brother are both INTPs, and they communicate pretty differently in some aspects, though similarly in others. dad is REALLY blatant. he completely lacks tact, lol. we were joking about it at dinner tonight. my brother is much more indirect about things. he's a master at distraction, too. the kid can be jumping on the bed and mom will come in, and he'll point out how i didn't do the dishes like i was supposed to have, or whatever. i want to him sometimes, lol... but he gets a lot like dad when he's angry. dad just gets angry and blatant, lol.

    but about not responding to the post in depth, hey, maybe it's more of a Ne-Ni difference than anything even related to Fe or Fi, much less disrespect or disinterest. i just tend to run away with and talk about whatever i feel like and whatever occurs and jump all over the place. it makes sense that Ni would be more inclined to dig in. fidelia posted something in the ENFP thread not too long ago pointing out that we weren't really answering all of her questions... which was true, lol, and i love fidelia and her questions. i guess i just don't really notice as much when people jump all over and out of order and leaving certain things untouched. i expect you'll respond to what you find most important and the conversation will flow from there. there are so many things to talk about! everything is related, so i don't see it as missing the point when people deviate a bit...

  9. #279
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    if there are things in her post that you'd like to see discussed, you could quote the parts of it you want to talk about and start talking about them, instead of implying that the rest of us have disappointed you by not talking about them? i don't mean this in a heated way, it just seems like if you'd like something discussed, you should start the conversation...
    This is true, however in this case it seemed to be in more of an Fe/Fi context/dialogue, so I found it more noteworthy that other Fi's (whether NFP's, or NTJ's, or STJ's, etc) weren't inclined to delve into it, that's all. It just seemed indicative of...something. lol. I've noticed it myself in other threads as well -- seemingly really interesting, thought-provoking posts being disregarded. That's all. It's most definitely not tied to any one type/function - I mean, it happens in all threads, with all functions. So I don't mean to imply that at all.

    Yes, you're right, I could have quoted parts. Perhaps I need to do better at that in the future, and just 'endorse' posts I totally agree with. haha. In this case, the thread ended up spinning into a totally different direction, and I belatedly chose to quote it, quoting the entire thing and saying I agreed. I'm not sure I myself could have added anything, as like I said I agreed with all of it; in other words, there wasn't anything for me to really dissect because I've written similar things on here in the past. Again, was just pointing out what I found interesting -- that no one bit on it. That's all.

    anyway i agree with pretty much everything proteanmix said in that post but i don't really have a huge amount to say about it besides that. it's not out of lack of respect or interest or anything, and i did read it at the time and i re-read it now.

    i think out of everything i particularly agree with her point that communication style can manifest through, but is not determined by, type. i think i communicate in a more Te-like fashion than anything, and if you were to read my creative writing it's pretty intensive Se.

    my dad and brother are both INTPs, and they communicate pretty differently in some aspects, though similarly in others. dad is REALLY blatant. he completely lacks tact, lol. we were joking about it at dinner tonight. my brother is much more indirect about things. he's a master at distraction, too. the kid can be jumping on the bed and mom will come in, and he'll point out how i didn't do the dishes like i was supposed to have, or whatever. i want to him sometimes, lol... but he gets a lot like dad when he's angry. dad just gets angry and blatant, lol.
    Glad to hear your input!

    but about not responding to the post in depth, hey, maybe it's more of a Ne-Ni difference than anything even related to Fe or Fi, much less disrespect or disinterest. i just tend to run away with and talk about whatever i feel like and whatever occurs and jump all over the place. it makes sense that Ni would be more inclined to dig in. fidelia posted something in the ENFP thread not too long ago pointing out that we weren't really answering all of her questions... which was true, lol, and i love fidelia and her questions. i guess i just don't really notice as much when people jump all over and out of order and leaving certain things untouched. i expect you'll respond to what you find most important and the conversation will flow from there. there are so many things to talk about! everything is related, so i don't see it as missing the point when people deviate a bit...
    This is true; I have noticed Ni tends to dig in deeper, and stick on topic and want to delve fully. However, I don't think it's strictly Ni, as I have also noticed that NTJ's *tend* not to respond to NiFe type responses. As a general trend.
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  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    This is true; I have noticed Ni tends to dig in deeper, and stick on topic and want to delve fully. However, I don't think it's strictly Ni, as I have also noticed that NTJ's *tend* not to respond to NiFe type responses. As a general trend.
    Interesting that you've noticed this...

    Often times, when I read an INFJ's post, I just go, "well, he/she looks at things differently than I do," and then I move on...

    And it's in a way that is particular to INFJs... I see how they're reframing the issue (Ni), and I think they are perfectly reasonable, it's just...

    It's just not a frame that tastes all that good to my palate...

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