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  1. #261
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @ Pit: actually, I would love to hear more about that. About Fe itself. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. What a 'healthy' Fe-user is like compared to one that's still maturing. And for that matter, if you recognize yourself in the ones that are still maturing, and if you therefore can better understand where they're coming from. And lastly, but definitely not leastly...*where* they actually come from, what their motivation is behind some of those behaviors, what causes them, etc. Coz that's what frustrates me..I can't fully relate, and it's like a gap in my puzzle that I really really hate *grumbles*
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  2. #262
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    *smiles* That's very much appreciated

    I was more talking in general, also irl. Part of why you find so much Fi-talk here is coz..well frankly, I for one tend to be labelled weird at best...difficult and unethical at worst becoz I see and do things differently than most people out there. And that's partly due to Fi. Ironically, Fi tends to be about the search for who you are and you do that by analyzing yourself...put those things together, add a pinch of frustration and a place where you find others who can relate and voila..an internet forum where you can finally discover who you are and how others experience this.
    agree 100%

    i try to defend/explain Fi because Fi-related behavior/understanding is seen as selfish, inconsistent, fluffy, irrational, dramatic, emo, etc. it gets so much bad press, but i think there's a good side of it too. i'm to the point of saying "maybe there's not" because i internalize so much shit about Fi but i know that's me just overreacting and wanting attention, deep down i trust that there's a purpose and logically it doesn't make sense for it to exist at all if it's not of some good to us. i also genuinely want to know how other people understand it, as well as how to improve it in myself.

    i'm just as curious about Fe, maybe even more so. i wish there was more talk about Fe. i just can't really talk about it myself because i don't understand it well.

    and i feel like the hurt is on both sides of the equation - Fe feels like it's getting panned but so does Fi. someone a while back referred to "all the butthurt" or something, lol. i wish we could figure out a way of either avoiding it or getting past it, but we haven't seemed to get there yet. fwiw, i'm trying. anyone is welcome to tell me how i could do better. i do feel like i'm learning with the conversation about different outward behavior expressing hurt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Seriously??? That really sucks. I am sorry to hear that. I would like to think I have a good basic understanding because I have been around so many Fi users. If that is what is really going on here, I wish that we could be understanding of each other.
    you're awesome in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Now there is an insightful comment.

    Where do people get the idea that unless Protean displays histrionic behavior, that she's not hurting? Because she comes across as a strong woman, she needs no support? Did it ever occur to anyone that Protean has probably been giving of herself so much her entire life, that she might not know how to ask for help or support to begin with? Ah, yes. Those who appear strongest need no help, no support, no friends.

    Think again.
    those who appear strongest appear not to want help, support, or friends.

    who am i to assume that they do?

    i'm not saying this to sound sarcastic, it's honest. if someone's outwardly rejecting others, then why is it right to assume that they don't really feel that way? maybe they do but if they don't, then it's not really fair to them to treat them that way, either. i can tell when emotion is off but i'm not always sure why, and i'm hesitant to make a decision. i don't know how i'm supposed to know for certain when someone wants support and when they don't, if they don't make it clear. and why is it my responsibility to figure out other people's inward thoughts? wouldn't they prefer to not have that privacy probed without invitation? and wouldn't people rather express themselves anyway, rather than having me guess?

  3. #263
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    @ Pit: actually, I would love to hear more about that. About Fe itself. The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. What a 'healthy' Fe-user is like compared to one that's still maturing. And for that matter, if you recognize yourself in the ones that are still maturing, and if you therefore can better understand where they're coming from. And lastly, but definitely not leastly...*where* they actually come from, what their motivation is behind some of those behaviors, what causes them, etc. Coz that's what frustrates me..I can't fully relate, and it's like a gap in my puzzle that I really really hate *grumbles*
    Ok.
    The bad: Really sheltered Fe users can be rather judgmental because they aren't forced to look outside of their own perspective and develop their other functions. As a result, some of them of will dismiss others that are different from them and will have a tendency to flat out tell people what they think is best for them (but it's just from their perspective and they don't really consider the other person). I think I can come off a little like this when I am under emotional distress.

    Good: When Fe users actually develop other functions and learn to look outside of their own perspectives, they can be quite charming, warm, open, truly tries to do things so that other people can reach their potential, encourage and accept of others but at the same time, they know how how to create group synergy. These people are truly genuine and if you ever meet one like this, you will see the awesomeness of Fe. Unfortunately, these Fe users seem to be above average users.

    To be honest, I think I am an average Fe user but am working towards being an above average user. The Fe users that Fi users tend to complain about tend to annoy the crap out of me. I want to stay away from becoming someone like that.

  4. #264
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Ok.
    The bad: Really sheltered Fe users can be rather judgmental because they aren't forced to look outside of their own perspective and develop their other functions. As a result, some of them of will dismiss others that are different from them and will have a tendency to flat out tell people what they think is best for them (but it's just from their perspective and they don't really consider the other person). I think I can come off a little like this when I am under emotional distress.

    Good: When Fe users actually develop other functions and learn to look outside of their own perspectives, they can be quite charming, warm, open, truly tries to do things so that other people can reach their potential, encourage and accept of others but at the same time, they know how how to create group synergy. These people are truly genuine and if you ever meet one like this, you willsee the awesomeness of Fe. Unfortunately, these Fe users seem to be above average users.

    To be honest, I think I am an average Fe user but am working towards being an above average user. The Fe users that Fi users tend to complain about tend to annoy the crap out of me. I want to stay away from becoming someone like that.

    This is awesome, keep going

    So why is it that the bolded comes out when you're stressed. Does it cost you actual effort to consider the person in front of you, when they have a different perspective? Do you have to remind yourself of stepping outside your own box? And why is it that stress would trigger you to become more closed again?

    Mmmm..ok, here's an assumption from my pov, feel free to tell me if I'm hot or cold:

    When you're stressed, you probably have less energy/time/patience to create a group harmony, and you also become less patient in those that seem to obstruct your goal at that point, or the person who is in fact demanding your energy and ruining the group harmony. So you shortcut it, telling them to already man up and get in line.

    If this is correct...does it also happen when you're alone with that same person? Do you still feel the need to create that groupharmony when it's...just the two of you? Or does that burden vanish then? *curious*
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  5. #265
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    those who appear strongest appear not to want help, support, or friends.
    who am i to assume that they do?
    It's called knowing people. That's it.

  6. #266
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    This is awesome, keep going

    So why is it that the bolded comes out when you're stressed. Does it cost you actual effort to consider the person in front of you, when they have a different perspective? Do you have to remind yourself of stepping outside your own box? And why is it that stress would trigger you to become more closed again?

    Mmmm..ok, here's an assumption from my pov, feel free to tell me if I'm hot or cold:

    When you're stressed, you probably have less energy/time/patience to create a group harmony, and you also become less patient in those that seem to obstruct your goal at that point, or the person who is in fact demanding your energy and ruining the group harmony. So you shortcut it, telling them to already man up and get in line.

    If this is correct...does it also happen when you're alone with that same person? Do you still feel the need to create that groupharmony when it's...just the two of you? Or does that burden vanish then? *curious*
    I think your assessment is pretty good but also it is sometimes like there is too much chaos, I need control or I am going to go crazy.
    I tend to act more relaxed when it's one on one. Group situations can sometimes bring out the worst in me.

  7. #267
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It's called knowing people. That's it.
    i still feel like it's assuming and intrusive even if i know someone well enough to make that guess. the fact remains that unless they say it, i don't for certain know.

    and what is so hard about just coming out and saying "i'm hurt" instead of launching attacks at everyone around you? to me, that seems just as unsympathetic and unenlightened as not seeing that you might really be hurt.

  8. #268
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    i still feel like it's assuming and intrusive even if i know someone well enough to make that guess.
    That's you. It's not me. We differ. End of story.

  9. #269
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to think it's not so much functions as response patterns. I'm going to take an avoidance perspective on this one, in the realm of shame vs. guilt:

    What we're calling "Fe" can manifest itself as an aversion to shame. The person seeing the world through the filter of Fe has an intense shame response, and consequently seeks to avoid it through socially acceptable behavior and a reliance on the esteem of others. The downside is that without an anchoring sense of guilt to pursue moral behavior, a person with this worldview can act immorally, as long as the group approves. When this is unstable, the "shunning" behavior manifests, as that person doesn't want to bear the transferred shame of association.

    On the other hand, what we're calling "Fi" is primarily an aversion to guilt. The guilt response is far stronger than the shame response, and thus, the person seeks to avoid guilt through the strong adherence to a personal code of ethics. The downside is that these ethics need not be based on external reality, since guilt is a deeply personal experience, and so can seem capricious and random. Along with this, when unstable, there can be a deep aversion to admitting responsibility, since this necessarily involves a guilt response.

    Ladies and gentlemen, have at it.

  10. #270
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    No we're not. I try to understand people through psychology, sociology, social psychology, anthropology, (not so much art and literature ) things like that. I don't use MBTI and typology as my only reference. To me it seems like you use MBTI and typology as your only references because you so often try to map things that I believe are broad human behaviors as endemic to a specific function. I used a picture before already in the thread and asked people how do you untangle that? I doesn't mean it can't be untangled and I think we're trying to untangle it in our own ways.

    What aspect of Fe values does this offend? I'm going to think about that. The strongest things I can identify is incomplete, oversimplified, and inaccurate.



    I think this is a perfect example of you overextending a concept to Fe users. These are my interpretations of what you are saying here
    • "Fe users don't understand people who think differently than them."
    • "Fe users don't understand why people would think differently than them."
    • "Fe users think they understand people when they don't."

    I hope I'm not twisting your statement in my mind and pulling things out of it that aren't there. Please correct me if I am. Honestly that's how I play that question back to myself and I think anyone can do any of those things so why is it "Fe users"?



    I suppose I'm not seeing what alternative approaches you're giving. I think it's interesting that throughout this thread, there has been an insistence (by you) that the communication problems you encounter are universal between Fe and Fi. I'm sorry, I don't see how this is at all universal. The only proof you have of this assertion is you interactions with coworkers in her dysfunctional job environment which brings out the worse in people it seems. I've been in a toxic workplace so I know how it is. Everyone is looking for a reason why it is the way it is and doing their best to make some reason out of it.

    I have steadily insisted that is not the case, that the communication difficulties you encounter are not strictly due to or even be mapped to Fe/Ti Fi/Te differences. I have tried to break things down into possible alternatives to why you're seeing you are:
    • office politics
    • fear-based work environment
    • indirect/direct communications
    • Interaction Styles
    • below I offer the economic climate


    Do you consider those alternatives? IMO, all of those reasons supersede type and functions. Do you think those reasons supersede type and function? If you don't, then that's a communication gap right there: our definitions and examples of what constitute "alternatives" and where those reasons arise are vastly different. From what I can see, none of these have been addressed as stand alones on their own merit.

    So yes, I can't really communicate with people who do this. If someone insists on saying Ti/Fe users cross their shoelaces to the right and Te/Fi cross theirs to the left and won't take into consideration the fact that it depends on if they're right-handed or left-handed or what method of shoe tying they were taught, or whether they have missing fingers, yes I am at a loss of what to say and it is frustrating. Additionally, I don't feel like I experience this as a problem in my real life interactions so to me yes, it does look like these issues are being exaggerated on the forum. I work with a mixture of FPs and TJs and for the most part, I feel like we're on the same page about things. Time will tell and as situations and problems crop up I'll see if that continues to be the case, but quite honestly EVERYONE seems quite invested on keeping things even-keeled and stable and ere towards overcommunication rather than undercommunication. Meaning things get restated five different ways and you feel like saying, "OK I get it!!"

    I made a thread a while ago asking people when can you legitimately map a behavior or action to someone's type. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...when-type.html (whoa that was different me!) I do believe that communication style can manifest through type, so I'm not arguing against that. I do argue against and disagree that type is the main determiner of communication style. I'm beginning to see that if it helps you, do what helps you to understand. I do wonder what happens when someone (or a whole lot of someones) don't fit and I hope that you can react to them without being confounded because they're not behaving according to your model.

    When you gave your example of what constitutes indirect communication, someone says "We need help but we don't know who will do it" which is direct to me, I understood that you are probably more responsive to orders and directives and anything less than that is indirect to you. This is why once again I say that if you're in an office environment with very strict hierarchical structure and I believe this is more a result of the culture and structure of the organization and how people respond to that structure than the people themselves.

    Also please take into consideration that in the current economic environment, people are very wary to do anything that would land their head on the chopping block. When people's livelihoods are at stake or they feel they're caught between the proverbial devil and the deep blue sea, it's probably going to produce some reactions that are atypical. When people are under stress for an extended amount of time, you are going to see stressed personality traits and unnatural responses. A person who is typically very engaged and involved can become passive and apathetic (that's what happened to me). Frankly, I hope my old job burns to the ground without a brick left to speak of its existence, lol.
    I'm still disappointed that these questions/thoughts were never addressed Only because I think this entire post is awesome and reflects many of the ways I look at things. Well, not only that: the fact that it just kinda fell by the wayside seems to indicate protean wasn't exactly 'heard' or acknowledged/understood either -- there was no interaction/dialogue related to this post (well, that wasn't soon deleted).

    We've gone from such interesting topics such as all of above, to once again equating Fe solely to Group Harmony and Fi to not caring about the group (in the simplest of terms).
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