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  1. #241

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    If the world got too messed up we'd probably stop procrastinating and save it. Then optimise our recreated society to be more fun and make more sense than the old one. I'd enjoy it. Could grab some ENTPs to help with the revolution. You never get to do fun things like revolt in a stable society.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  2. #242
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    I thought that NTP was all about what cant be seen. You can extrapolate all this other stuff to come up with theories, but you cant extrapolate this. You broken?
    Just like Kenny Rogers sang, you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. I won't learn anything from that conversation, because learning's not the focus nor the intention there.

  3. #243
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The kicker is no matter how you look at it Fe-Fi difference really is blaming Fe as its one side of the problem. Lets remove Fi blame and Fe blame and put things on a sliding scale where Fi is on one side and Fe is on the other. Successful communication is when that whole scale can be covered from left to right. Basically Fe will leave its side, Fi will leave its side and they will meet somewhere inbetween covering the entire communication gap. What if Fi hits a sticking point and Fe takes it upon themselves to bridge that extra gap in regards to communication. Say Fi made it 25% and Fe went the 50% and then the extra 25%. At this point Fi will feel a gap because of the sticking point. To say that its because of the difference and then to recognize it as a communication issue is like shooting Fe in the foot. Be prepared to face the entire gap(though I get the impression that Fe just steps back to 50% and will force Fi to go the extra 25%.)

    Just one angle in regards to the communication isse. I face the same problem with Te.
    My thoughts on this are that since Fe "rules" are visible, and Fi "rules" generally not, it is harder for Fe to understand Fi. That could be why Fi users feel like they have to enter Fe space to attempt to be understood rather than an Fe user meet them in Fi space, or even in the middle, halfway.

    (Forgive the usage of Fe user / Fi user terminology; it's imperfect, but all I've got atm.)

    It's like we speak different languages, but I can decipher yours (to a point) since I see and hear it all day long - yet mine remains somewhat of a mystery, since it resides mostly in my own head and heart.

    Just a quick impression from your post.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #244
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I dunno. I tend to get pretty irate when all I see is a bunch of people being dicks to each other (read: much earlier in this thread, in other threads, etc.)
    I tend to get irritated when people can't pick up a book and read about the functions.
    Worse yet are those who admit they've never read a book on the subject, but claim to be some kind of typing "expert."

    "Yuckitty Yuck Yuck Yuck, hey huneeeee, that must have been an ESTP that just walked by. He was smelling his coffee! Daaaayuuuummmmm we're good at typing! "

  5. #245
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My thoughts on this are that since Fe "rules" are visible, and Fi "rules" generally not, it is harder for Fe to understand Fi.
    Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #246
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.
    Everyone has personal values that are unique to them as an individual. There are also objective rules of human conduct that must be followed lest others get offended. Just as those personal values develop differently based on the experiences of the individual, so do those objective rules manifest themselves differently based on the experiences of the culture. However, the purposes underlying those manifestations are universal.

  7. #247
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    The kicker is no matter how you look at it Fe-Fi difference really is blaming Fe as its one side of the problem. Lets remove Fi blame and Fe blame and put things on a sliding scale where Fi is on one side and Fe is on the other. Successful communication is when that whole scale can be covered from left to right. Basically Fe will leave its side, Fi will leave its side and they will meet somewhere inbetween covering the entire communication gap. What if Fi hits a sticking point and Fe takes it upon themselves to bridge that extra gap in regards to communication. Say Fi made it 25% and Fe went the 50% and then the extra 25%. At this point Fi will feel a gap because of the sticking point. To say that its because of the difference and then to recognize it as a communication issue is like shooting Fe in the foot. Be prepared to face the entire gap(though I get the impression that Fe just steps back to 50% and will force Fi to go the extra 25%.)

    Just one angle in regards to the communication isse. I face the same problem with Te.
    good description, i agree with you.

    i have that issue between me and Ti dom/aux too... strong Ti communication style from a Ti dom/aux - lots of definition and logical back-and-forth - is hard for me to understand, but if i don't make an effort then it's not fair to just blow off the other person and call it their fault that things are tense between us. plus it might not be Ti at all, it might just be me being an ass.

    i dunno if you read a post to proteo i wrote a little bit ago but i think this has happened with my best friend and i too. when we both get angry, she puts up a wall to defend herself, and i explode outwards. and it's 0% effective because she's blocking my attempt to open up and i'm obliviously trying to understand her wall, instead of her. we think we're making an effort but we don't realize that our own style is not working for the other side, and it just escalates our own personal upset.

    i personally don't see any negativity in saying that Fe and Fi communicating with each other might have some difficulties. it's not blame; neither side is wrong - a Fe dom misunderstanding a Fi dom does nothing wrong because they're understanding things from their point of view. the same goes for a Fi dom misunderstanding a Fe dom. they're just different takes on things, and applying Fe philosophy to Fi or Fi philosophy to Fe can result both in some really cool points, but also sometimes in misunderstanding one another. the thing that people might do that is morally wrong, to me, is to totally blow off the other person, like i am frequently tempted to do with the Ti doms i live with! lol.

    anyway, to me, it sounded like orobas's point in applying typology to the situation was not to point out "Fe blame," but to understand what was happening, which suggests (at least from my pov) an attempt to be able to bridge that gap if she wants. and it seems obvious to me that proteo was making a definite effort to communicate with oro as well, but it did come off as strong to me, which was what i wanted to point out.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby
    My thoughts on this are that since Fe "rules" are visible, and Fi "rules" generally not, it is harder for Fe to understand Fi. That could be why Fi users feel like they have to enter Fe space to attempt to be understood rather than an Fe user meet them in Fi space, or even in the middle, halfway.
    yes, this is a good point. i feel like it's why i have trouble understanding Ti too. it's much more subtle and interwoven than my pretty blatant Te. and sometimes i think it can feel to others like Fi-based anger comes out of nowhere, whereas to me it's been building for a while as i feel like my toes are being stepped on more and more. but to be fair to others, i need to communicate that building frustration before it does explode.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime
    Everyone has personal values that are unique to them as an individual. There are also objective rules of human conduct that must be followed lest others get offended. Just as those personal values develop differently based on the experiences of the individual, so do those objective rules manifest themselves differently based on the experiences of the culture. However, the purposes underlying those manifestations are universal.
    i really like this description! i've been having a hard time believing that either Fe or Te are universal because my Te ways are quite different from a lot of other Te ways, and i know some Fe doms with different ways of expressing that Fe. i really liked this:
    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix

    To me that's a very accurate (although a little less warm and fuzzy) depiction of Fe.
    and it seems to resound with your description. each person's web will be slightly different, and their bonds different and their perspective and experiences different, so every person will have a different kind of Fe perspective.

  8. #248
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.

  9. #249
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yes, and not just "invisible" but seemingly unique from person to person (whereas Fe by nature seems to be more community-generated and thus explicit and uniform). So just because I see into one set of Fi rules doesn't mean it'll apply to the next person with their own internal moral sense. Each person has to be explored individually.
    Yes, but bear in mind too: My Fi "rules" could quite closely match any Fe ones ... there's quite a lot of natural overlap, commonality, between the two functions.

    (Which protean aptly pointed out by posting the mission statement earlier in thread.)

    And Fe "rules" vary from group to group, place to place ... I generally observe and study them to learn what they are in order to not step on any toes. I value relationships and peaceful coexistence, so therefore I care enough to do this.

    Why am I so careful? Because there's this sense I have, that if I break them, inadvertently or not, it will be noted and held against me in the future. My true nature and intent are less relevant it seems. The Fe "brownie points" or "faux pas" I score become data points, that an Fe user seems to use as reference to predict my future behaviour and thus make judgements about my character.

    As an Fi user, I do find it constraining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.
    I hear what you are saying; just because protean's reaction is not the same as Oro's does not mean she herself is not feeling any painful emotion behind her words. Anger exists to protect us from something we find threatening in our lives. I do think if it had kept on longer, protean would have needed TLC too, and still probably would benefit from working through these anger points, identify what feels upsetting to her about this discussion. And I agree - heartfelt pain expresses in a wide variety of ways.

    I'd love to explore it, because I do see it as a pattern.

    But proteanmix was in the power position throughout the thread (esp as it started to turn a tad personal). Just as in a boardroom discussion, one must note all the players at the table, gage their reactions, keep things delicately balanced to ensure everyone has a chance to speak their piece, be heard and feel understood.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #250
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    For some reason it's like a rock on my heart to read what people are saying about Proteanmix's reaction. I see Proteanmix as agitated and upset -- if it kept up like that much longer, maybe there would be tears -- but just because somebody doesn't act sad/cry/retreat does not mean they're not hurt. Hurt can display as angry or exasperated, especially when it's coming from hearing the same old thing again for the nth time, which the Fi v Fe is. It sucks to be misunderstood and devalued.
    are you talking about me, or others?

    it's easier to reach out to someone when they're breaking down than putting out spikes. if you're angry and exasperated it's harder for me to connect with you than if you're sad and crying. putting out spikes isn't wrong, of course, it's just a different way of handling things. in some ways it's more responsible because you're taking care of yourself instead of letting yourself be totally vulnerable. but it does make others more likely to go on the defense to protect themselves instead of attending to your hurt. maybe that's not right, or good, but i don't see it as an illogical response.

    if this is about me then i do feel bad that proteanmix is feeling hurt and/or devalued. that was never my intention, at least personally, and part of the reason i'm doing all this analysis is because i want to help her (and oro) not feel bad. it seemed like the communication between she and orobas was being misunderstood on both ends, and i thought it would be helpful to her if i point out my understanding of the situation so she can see why others might have reacted the way they did - not because they dislike or disvalue her, but because of the way her statements have come off, at least to me personally.

    anyway, i hate talking about people who are here and i've been doing it a lot. sorry if i've misinterpreted anything you guys did or said, this was just my understanding and i'd rather just let y'all hear it in case it is valuable, instead of not trying to help at all.

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