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  1. #231
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Don't knock fried ice cream. It's pretty nummy!

    huh. fair point, that does look good. i live in the southern us though, you gotta understand, the only fried ice cream that i've ever seen looks more like...



    and comes with a fried twinkie and/or snickers!

    sorry... derailing topic again... uh...

    what would the world do without Fe... man, i dunno. people would be pretty oblivious to each other, i think. Fi cares at a deep level but isn't very good at interacting or choosing when to interact. no Fe also means we'd all only use Te, which would mean a lot more external explanations. that'd probably get kind of annoying after a while. we'd have a lot less social bonding. ugh and less parties! boooo.

  2. #232
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Oooh, I feel like I'm being gently rocked to sleep. With my hand in warm water.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    If I answer your questions further, I will potentially get myself into trouble using my intuition in a way that's not often appreciated out loud. If you want to go there, I will. But I need your explicit permission first.
    Feel free, but are you performing for an audience? Send me what you have to say through PM. I'll read and respond. If you're correct, I'll confirm and whatever motivation you have to set things right (were they amiss in the first place?) will be satisfied.

    Do you feel like you could use some advocacy in this thread?
    Do you think I need advocacy? This can go on forever. Whatever clues you used to piece together Oro's need for support, use that same nose of yours to find if I needed some.

    But once again I ask you, if you sensed I needed support, advocacy or whatever, why did you explicitly and publicly shore up Oro and not me...or anyone else for that matter who your intuition told you needed support? How'd you pick and choose? What were the deciding factors in your mind?

    ETA:
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    cause you're asserting yourself. orobas was asserting her ideas. it felt like her self was being left behind. it sounds like you're protecting your self, yourself.
    How was I asserting myself while Oro was not? She has 26 posts in this thread (including the deleted ones...she deleted 11) and I have 18 (none deleted). She's posted way more than me and directly addressed me several times to which I responded.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #233
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    Ok, onemoretime...

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post





  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ok, onemoretime...
    No one here has enough to make Fe go
    Im out, its been fun

  5. #235
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    How was I asserting myself while Oro was not? She has 26 posts in this thread (including the deleted ones...she deleted 11) and I have 18 (none deleted). She's posted way more than me and directly addressed me several times to which I responded.
    it's not really about numbers; it's the tone of what y'all said. i went back through the whole thread and reread everything to make sure i wasn't off, and i do notice that stuff has been deleted, so maybe i haven't seen everything. but in general, this is my impression -- it seems like orobas was doing a lot of type-based interpretation, and when she declined to interpret using a different paradigm, you made a few strong statements directed at her specifically, calling her out on something negative. she refused, continuing to interpret with MBTI, and you both got frustrated.

    i agree with you saying that she seemed to be reducing a lot to type, things that might be totally type-independent, and then making generalizations based off of that. not to reduce to type myself, but she and i are the same type, and i know that i can get very caught up in theory sometimes - excited about analyzing and theorizing to the point of forgetting reality and/or accidentally offending people. perhaps this is what happened to her.

    so it seems that what happened in the conversation is that she got lost in analyzing to the point of making offensive blanket statements and you made strong negative statements directed at her that she found offensive. but you seemed to be more aware of what you were saying, while she seemed to be caught in a paradigm. not that that's more excusable or anything, but it seemed like you were asserting yourself personally more in defense of Fe, while she just kept talking about type and not really about herself. so it seems like she would more likely be personally offended - but that's only in forgetting that her generalizations applied to a group you are a part of.

    my point is that i see and agree with aspects of both of your arguments, but this is my understanding of why it may seem like orobas is more of an underdog in the debate.

    if you want my play-by-play analysis... it's here, lol...
    orobas' first posts were about Ti/Fe and Fi/Te, and they seemed pretty neutral. then your first post was about Fe in depth, you were talking about people not recognizing Fe at work at a more intimate level. and i do agree with a ton of what you wrote there, but your language was more emotionally-tinged. it sounded vaguely frustrated. then you guys engaged in some other discussions, you were both pretty neutral. orobas said she thought some of your thoughts were "beautiful" and she'd get back to them later. she posted her comment about the types if there's no Fe, saying that she thinks Te/Fi and Ti/Fe seem to "result in massive communication issues." your reply included "I think people on this forum EXAGGERATE miscommunications [...] You'd think the other function pairs Se/Ni and Si/Ne would have just as much difficulty, but for some reason people with their own agendas seem to lay the blame at this." perhaps this was not your intention, but it comes off a bit as attacking her, instead of just saying her ideas are off. i think it's because your language again seemed emotionally-tinged. hers again seemed neutral.

    her reply saying she thought people on forums undercover the severity of miscommunication was not overtly friendly, but it didn't seem negative either. uumlau's response to it was more forceful in nature. your response to uumlau was pretty neutral. bologna agrees with you; orobas posts counterpoint to bologna, bologna posts counterpoint to orobas, orobas posts counterpoint to bologna. all insistent but neutral. you post counterpoint to uumlau; insistent but neutral. in the same post, you reply this to orobas: "I guess you're trying to create some theory of everything in your mind using MBTI and you disregard stuff that doesn't fit." not explicitly attacking, but kind of an unfriendly assumption. i don't think her ENFJ example was necessarily miscommunication either though, just to point that out. i think her point was "she never said it, so i can interpret it any way i want", while your point was "non-literal communication, duh." and i agree with both of those things. jaguar pointed out that it seemed obv too but uumlau noted that hindsight is 20/20.

    and then here is where it feels a little more explicit to me: your post saying "Then basically are saying you CANNOT COMMUNICATE with half the population. Do you understand what that means? It doesn't mean it's Fe users, it means IT'S YOU! Stop making it Fe, when it's you. Furthermore, stop dragging other Fi users into your underworld and blowing it up into some kind of Fe-Fi communication abyss, when it's Orobas's lack of understanding. You're making yourself the standard and everyone else the exception." the thing is, she never actually said it was Fe, she said Fe-Fi difference. there's nowhere she says that it's only Fe users that are the problem. she just says Fe-Fi has different communication styles. to me, it never came out as blaming Fe any more than Fi, just saying she doesn't understand the other side. her example did make Fe sound more "difficult", but it wasn't blaming Fe. then you talk about your "puny empathy skills" (i take it that is sarcastic). orobas did make a lot of type-related assumptions. the way i understand it, she was applying typology theory. i agree that it may have been overdone, and personal difference not accounted for enough. but the way you stated that came off more as aimed at her, not her idea, and in a defensive way. then you got more neutral in discussion.

  6. #236
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Oooh, I feel like I'm being gently rocked to sleep. With my hand in warm water.
    I believe Mythbusters disproved that one.

    Feel free, but are you performing for an audience? Send me what you have to say through PM. I'll read and respond. If you're correct, I'll confirm and whatever motivation you have to set things right (were they amiss in the first place?) will be satisfied.
    No, I am not performing for an audience. It would be incredibly authentic of me and therefore very scary if I told you everything I see and think. I don't want to send it via PM either, so I guess we'll just have to shake hands and move on from that exercise. EDIT: I have sent you a PM.

    Do you think I need advocacy? This can go on forever. Whatever clues you used to piece together Oro's need for support, use that same nose of yours to find if I needed some.
    No, I don't think you do here, in this thread, and I said as much already. I think skylights summed it up nicely. I just wanted to ask in case I had missed something. I'm not above admitting I may have done so.

    But once again I ask you, if you sensed I needed support, advocacy or whatever, why did you explicitly and publicly shore up Oro and not me...or anyone else for that matter who your intuition told you needed support? How'd you pick and choose? What were the deciding factors in your mind?
    To reiterate, I didn't think you needed help, in this thread. How did I pick and choose? Just what I sensed from the dynamic. That doesn't mean I don't think you feel pain in your life. I feel drawn to you for totally different reasons than Oro.

    protean, I admire a great deal of what you share here - feel your feelings, say what you need to. But can you see you have a role in this too? Is is hard to try to meet in the middle? Is the whole topic so annoying your patience runs thin? I know I get tired of seeing the same old cliches about Fe and Fi. They do little to help enable true insight unfortunately.

    I do think there's MUCH more that was upsetting completely unrelated to you in this thread. So please don't get the impression I am holding you responsible somehow. That would absolve others and would be unfair to you. EDIT: explained in PM.

    Biases: My tendency is to defend who I perceive as the underdog, so that would be a bias here. I just want to state that and make it clear.
    Last edited by PeaceBaby; 08-18-2010 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Added the Edits: sent you a PM
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    it's not really about numbers; it's the tone of what y'all said. i went back through the whole thread and reread everything to make sure i wasn't off, and i do notice that stuff has been deleted, so maybe i haven't seen everything. but in general, this is my impression -- it seems like orobas was doing a lot of type-based interpretation, and when she declined to interpret using a different paradigm, you made a few strong statements directed at her specifically, calling her out on something negative. she refused, continuing to interpret with MBTI, and you both got frustrated.

    i agree with you saying that she seemed to be reducing a lot to type, things that might be totally type-independent, and then making generalizations based off of that. not to reduce to type myself, but she and i are the same type, and i know that i can get very caught up in theory sometimes - excited about analyzing and theorizing to the point of forgetting reality and/or accidentally offending people. perhaps this is what happened to her.

    so it seems that what happened in the conversation is that she got lost in analyzing to the point of making offensive blanket statements and you made strong negative statements directed at her that she found offensive. but you seemed to be more aware of what you were saying, while she seemed to be caught in a paradigm. not that that's more excusable or anything, but it seemed like you were asserting yourself personally more in defense of Fe, while she just kept talking about type and not really about herself. so it seems like she would more likely be personally offended - but that's only in forgetting that her generalizations applied to a group you are a part of.

    my point is that i see and agree with aspects of both of your arguments, but this is my understanding of why it may seem like orobas is more of an underdog in the debate.

    if you want my play-by-play analysis... it's here, lol...
    orobas' first posts were about Ti/Fe and Fi/Te, and they seemed pretty neutral. then your first post was about Fe in depth, you were talking about people not recognizing Fe at work at a more intimate level. and i do agree with a ton of what you wrote there, but your language was more emotionally-tinged. it sounded vaguely frustrated. then you guys engaged in some other discussions, you were both pretty neutral. orobas said she thought some of your thoughts were "beautiful" and she'd get back to them later. she posted her comment about the types if there's no Fe, saying that she thinks Te/Fi and Ti/Fe seem to "result in massive communication issues." your reply included "I think people on this forum EXAGGERATE miscommunications [...] You'd think the other function pairs Se/Ni and Si/Ne would have just as much difficulty, but for some reason people with their own agendas seem to lay the blame at this." perhaps this was not your intention, but it comes off a bit as attacking her, instead of just saying her ideas are off. i think it's because your language again seemed emotionally-tinged. hers again seemed neutral.

    her reply saying she thought people on forums undercover the severity of miscommunication was not overtly friendly, but it didn't seem negative either. uumlau's response to it was more forceful in nature. your response to uumlau was pretty neutral. bologna agrees with you; orobas posts counterpoint to bologna, bologna posts counterpoint to orobas, orobas posts counterpoint to bologna. all insistent but neutral. you post counterpoint to uumlau; insistent but neutral. in the same post, you reply this to orobas: "I guess you're trying to create some theory of everything in your mind using MBTI and you disregard stuff that doesn't fit." not explicitly attacking, but kind of an unfriendly assumption. i don't think her ENFJ example was necessarily miscommunication either though, just to point that out. i think her point was "she never said it, so i can interpret it any way i want", while your point was "non-literal communication, duh." and i agree with both of those things. jaguar pointed out that it seemed obv too but uumlau noted that hindsight is 20/20.

    and then here is where it feels a little more explicit to me: your post saying "Then basically are saying you CANNOT COMMUNICATE with half the population. Do you understand what that means? It doesn't mean it's Fe users, it means IT'S YOU! Stop making it Fe, when it's you. Furthermore, stop dragging other Fi users into your underworld and blowing it up into some kind of Fe-Fi communication abyss, when it's Orobas's lack of understanding. You're making yourself the standard and everyone else the exception." the thing is, she never actually said it was Fe, she said Fe-Fi difference. there's nowhere she says that it's only Fe users that are the problem. she just says Fe-Fi has different communication styles. to me, it never came out as blaming Fe any more than Fi, just saying she doesn't understand the other side. her example did make Fe sound more "difficult", but it wasn't blaming Fe. then you talk about your "puny empathy skills" (i take it that is sarcastic). orobas did make a lot of type-related assumptions. the way i understand it, she was applying typology theory. i agree that it may have been overdone, and personal difference not accounted for enough. but the way you stated that came off more as aimed at her, not her idea, and in a defensive way. then you got more neutral in discussion.
    The kicker is no matter how you look at it Fe-Fi difference really is blaming Fe as its one side of the problem. Lets remove Fi blame and Fe blame and put things on a sliding scale where Fi is on one side and Fe is on the other. Successful communication is when that whole scale can be covered from left to right. Basically Fe will leave its side, Fi will leave its side and they will meet somewhere inbetween covering the entire communication gap. What if Fi hits a sticking point and Fe takes it upon themselves to bridge that extra gap in regards to communication. Say Fi made it 25% and Fe went the 50% and then the extra 25%. At this point Fi will feel a gap because of the sticking point. To say that its because of the difference and then to recognize it as a communication issue is like shooting Fe in the foot. Be prepared to face the entire gap(though I get the impression that Fe just steps back to 50% and will force Fi to go the extra 25%.)

    Just one angle in regards to the communication isse. I face the same problem with Te.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #238
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    No one here has enough to make Fe go
    I don't know why he even bothers. It's not like I'm going to see it.

  9. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I don't know why he even bothers. It's not like I'm going to see it.
    I thought that NTP was all about what cant be seen. You can extrapolate all this other stuff to come up with theories, but you cant extrapolate this. You broken?
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    No one here has enough to make Fe go
    I dunno. I tend to get pretty irate when all I see is a bunch of people being dicks to each other (read: much earlier in this thread, in other threads, etc.)

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