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  1. #201
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Now HERE is a possible Fe/Fi difference!

    When my POV is being severely disagreed with (believe me, I know all about that), I don't feel like it's a "wound" that needs to be nursed. It doesn't require a therapeutic massage and incense! I feel like I put it out there into the public domain and something is going to get said about it. I've put in emergency exits for myself when things start hitting me personally--when I need to stop participating in a thread if it's pushing my buttons. but seriously, I don't expect to be gently patted on the head and coddled. This has more to do with my relationship to internet forums and attachment to my ideas, I suppose. Things I don't want criticized I hold to myself. My preciouses....
    What I've noticed is that the wounds are in different spots. I've observed that for Fe, Ti seems to be what gets wounded. For Te, Fi is what gets wounded.

    Fe tends to use "you" language a lot, just as Fi tends to use "I" language, which is how Fi starts perceiving Fe to be a busybody and Fe perceives Fi as self-absorbed. Fe's "you" language can be very positive, an effort to express concern for the other individual as a person. It is genuine concern.

    Fi, on the other hand, can perceive that concern negatively, as not genuine, as pushy or bossy, and so on. Fi expresses concern and connection by sharing of themselves and of their experiences, which sounds self-absorbed to the Fe side of things, especially if the "Fe-user" hasn't asked about such things.

    When "Fi users" use "I" language with each other, this is how they avoid conflict: each is talking of their own experiences in their own context, saying something like, "Oh, yeah, I had that happen to me once. I ended up handling it thus and so." Thus advice is given, without expressing opinions of "you" that might be taken the wrong way. They don't hear it as self-involved, because it's mutually understood as a means of respecting boundaries. Giving an Fi user an example of how one is wrong about something works just fine. Or giving the Fi user a Te example of what is wrong, pointing at the idea and saying that the idea is wrong, works just fine. But telling the Fi user that the Fi user him/her-self is wrong, that causes a wound, because the message heard is very different from the message sent. What is heard is that one is intrinsically wrong, not that merely an idea is incorrect.

    Contrariwise, I've noticed that on the Fe side, going after ideas in the Te way (directly talking about the other's ideas) is what causes similar offense, because Ti maintains that one cannot know the truth so certainly. The correct approach is to ask questions, point out inconsistencies and ask that they be resolved, and so on ... a more Ti approach to knowledge.

    In fact, this is where I figured the "directness" conversation would end up, with Fe possessing one kind of directness, and Te another. Both sides are differently direct, and differently sensitive, and both are honestly puzzled by the others "overreactions" to directness.

    Additionally, is this a sign of a person who doesn't tolerate being disagreed with very well? And what about my (possible/hypothetical) feelings of frustration? Because I didn't make a dramatic exit from the thread they don't exist? Squeaky wheels!
    I think both sides were frustrated. I would disagree that it was about "not taking being disagreements with very well", but rather how the disagreement is expressed and then interpreted in completely different terms. FWIW, Proteo, I respect both you and Oro for tackling these issues.

    Big for putting up with all of this.


    Yeah, I have pretty deadpan delivery. People tend to not tell when I'm joking.
    Hahahahahah!

    My Mom, INFJ, was exactly the same way. She'd end up having to backpedal and say, "I was joking. No really! I was being sarcastic."

    I would hypothesize that it had to do with delivering both the verbal message -and- the appropriate accompanying body language and tone that so many people would take her sarcasm seriously - that normally no one would take the statement as for real, but her delivery was so sincere and honest!

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    What I've noticed is that the wounds are in different spots. I've observed that for Fe, Ti seems to be what gets wounded. For Te, Fi is what gets wounded.

    Fe tends to use "you" language a lot, just as Fi tends to use "I" language, which is how Fi starts perceiving Fe to be a busybody and Fe perceives Fi as self-absorbed. Fe's "you" language can be very positive, an effort to express concern for the other individual as a person. It is genuine concern.


    Fi, on the other hand, can perceive that concern negatively, as not genuine, as pushy or bossy, and so on. Fi expresses concern and connection by sharing of themselves and of their experiences, which sounds self-absorbed to the Fe side of things, especially if the "Fe-user" hasn't asked about such things.

    When "Fi users" use "I" language with each other, this is how they avoid conflict: each is talking of their own experiences in their own context, saying something like, "Oh, yeah, I had that happen to me once. I ended up handling it thus and so." Thus advice is given, without expressing opinions of "you" that might be taken the wrong way. They don't hear it as self-involved, because it's mutually understood as a means of respecting boundaries. Giving an Fi user an example of how one is wrong about something works just fine. Or giving the Fi user a Te example of what is wrong, pointing at the idea and saying that the idea is wrong, works just fine. But telling the Fi user that the Fi user him/her-self is wrong, that causes a wound, because the message heard is very different from the message sent. What is heard is that one is intrinsically wrong, not that merely an idea is incorrect.

    Contrariwise, I've noticed that on the Fe side, going after ideas in the Te way (directly talking about the other's ideas) is what causes similar offense, because Ti maintains that one cannot know the truth so certainly. The correct approach is to ask questions, point out inconsistencies and ask that they be resolved, and so on ... a more Ti approach to knowledge.


    In fact, this is where I figured the "directness" conversation would end up, with Fe possessing one kind of directness, and Te another. Both sides are differently direct, and differently sensitive, and both are honestly puzzled by the others "overreactions" to directness.



    I think both sides were frustrated. I would disagree that it was about "not taking being disagreements with very well", but rather how the disagreement is expressed and then interpreted in completely different terms. FWIW, Proteo, I respect both you and Oro for tackling these issues.

    Big for putting up with all of this.



    Hahahahahah!

    My Mom, INFJ, was exactly the same way. She'd end up having to backpedal and say, "I was joking. No really! I was being sarcastic."

    I would hypothesize that it had to do with delivering both the verbal message -and- the appropriate accompanying body language and tone that so many people would take her sarcasm seriously - that normally no one would take the statement as for real, but her delivery was so sincere and honest!
    YES. The whole post resonated with me. Instead of "you", I try to use "someone, "one", "individual". Is that more diplomatic or is that still offensive to the average Fi user?

    I usually want to chew people out when they say definite things. I have chewed people out for saying all XXXX... or XXXX are...

  3. #203
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    YES. The whole post resonated with me. Instead of "you", I try to use "someone, "one", "individual". Is that more diplomatic or is that still offensive to the average Fi user?

    I usually want to chew people out when they say definite things. I have chewed people out for saying all XXXX... or XXXX are...
    Exactly.

    I tend to use third person pronoun or "it" in forum posts. It's the only grammar that seems to resonate in a general way, with the only disadvantage that it can sound stilted and formal. '

    If one says "You" and there is even an inkling of a negative point, then it is possible for whomever "you" refers to infer that the negative point is about them. If one says "I" and there is even an inkling of excessive pride in oneself, or how one is better than others, it can be heard as how "I" am better than you.

    It gets worse, though. If one says "Fe user" or "Fi user", even if only to mean an archetype and to think through a problem, one is often likely to offend those who identify with "Fe user" or "Fi user", and it can take quite a while to undo that damage. Notice how I try to say "tends to" and similar qualifiers when discussing Fi and Fe.

    The overall object is to discuss "ideas" in an abstract, impersonal space, rather than a space in which people are likely to take offense.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    It gets worse, though. If one says "Fe user" or "Fi user", even if only to mean an archetype and to think through a problem, one is often likely to offend those who identify with "Fe user" or "Fi user", and it can take quite a while to undo that damage. Notice how I try to say "tends to" and similar qualifiers when discussing Fi and Fe.

    The overall object is to discuss "ideas" in an abstract, impersonal space, rather than a space in which people are likely to take offense.
    Qualifiers I can respect. I try to do the same myself because, like Pitselah, I really can't abide definitive statements - which is what tends to happen when discussing the theory. I can't abide them, because they are simply untrue. Yes, there are certainly trends for each of the functions and each of the types, but you can't really assess a particular individual based on the overall trend. The individual may be on the outskirts of the bell curve. So to speak.
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  5. #205
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    I just really am trying to reconcile the 'look beyond MBTI tendency' for 'Fe users' with the whole perception that 'Fi doesn't want to box people in.'

    So, how is that reconciled?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    YES. The whole post resonated with me. Instead of "you", I try to use "someone, "one", "individual".
    Well, personally, I don't tend to t

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    that it was pointed to and 'called out'
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    the use of particular functions doesn't dictate whether or not one reaches
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    If an individual who identifies with a certain type doesn't identify with a certain thought or idea that one associates with
    dammit.

    I usually want to chew people out when they say definite things. I have chewed people out for saying all XXXX... or XXXX are...
    + a billion


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah, I have pretty deadpan delivery. People tend to not tell when I'm joking.
    When I care about getting my 'joking' across on forums, my favorite smiley to use is . I love it.

    Yeah, I'd say that sometimes 'deadpan' delivery is part of the joke. It's just a lot easier to clear that up in 'real life,' immediately after the delivery.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The overall object is to discuss "ideas" in an abstract, impersonal space, rather than a space in which people are likely to take offense.
    Also agree with this

  6. #206
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Given that human beings are social animals - well, it'll be like amputating that evolutionary trait.

    Humans are both individuals and part of a group, and both these aspects need to be maintained for our species to survive. The individual must put a value and/or identity onto onself, in order to propagate own genes, and then rely on the protection of their group/their tribes, to raise their progeny to its own reproductive success. You cannot isolate either aspects.

    Our individual identity, its formation, its meaning, relies on a certain kind of reflection, bounce-off, of the society at large.

    I am female. <- this is meaningless unless the properties attached to it are outlined, such that X property is included and Y property is not included to understand the term "female", and so on.


    One cannot claim an individual identity without being part of a group.

  7. #207
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    I have issues with people seeing things a definitive way. The more open someone is the definitive I can be...the more definitive they become the more open I become.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #208
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    I focussed on O here because she's the one who's backed out and the rest of the participants are still in the ring and ready to go (so to speak). The why of that matters to me; I don't see that action as her needing to be babied. I see it as potentially something (that if addressed) can lead to greater self-discovery. I want to get her back in. I want to support her so she can express that inner stuff ... Fi users can find it hard to articulate at times, and can be easily squished by strong Te or Fe convictions.
    So...the squeaky wheel? The person who seemingly evidences the emotional "trauma" gets the bandage? I encountered something similar to this in my RL recently, because I didn't make a show of how I was feeling I evidently wasn't feeling anything at all. Also, why don't you voice these concerns to her personally via PM or wall message if you really want her back in the thread? If she's put it on ignore, then she's not seeing any of this.

    And squished my @ss. What other strong Fe has consistently been a presence here in the thread? Once again, you're portraying Fe as the school yard bully who pushed the little scrawny Fi kid off the swing.

    Orobas: What is "the game" and how do "we" crush each other?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  9. #209
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    #1
    Why not be sensible here and realize that it may just be you, who has a problem.It's not that you don't "speak Fe," it's that you don't read people very well.
    #2
    It doesn't mean it's Fe users, it means IT'S YOU! Stop making it Fe, when it's you.
    I'm waiting for someone who is unbiased to see that the same person could have posted those two comments.
    On the other hand, perhaps a few members need to visit an optometrist this week.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So...the squeaky wheel? The person who seemingly evidences the emotional "trauma" gets the bandage? I encountered something similar to this in my RL recently, because I didn't make a show of how I was feeling I evidently wasn't feeling anything at all. Also, why don't you voice these concerns to her personally via PM or wall message if you really want her back in the thread? If she's put it on ignore, then she's not seeing any of this.

    And squished my @ss. Besides me and bologna what other strong Fe has consistently been a presence here in the thread? Once again, you're portraying Fe as the school yard bully who pushed the little scrawny Fi kid off the swing.

    Orobas: What is "the game" and how do "we" crush each other?
    YOU CALLIN ME WEAK

    I am still stuck as to whether this is possibly a test Oro is doing or not.
    Im out, its been fun

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