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  1. #131
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    A couple threads lately got me thinking - what would the world be like without Fe?

    It seems like it would be a much more selfish and unhappy place.
    I think a world without Fe would look something like this:

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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The problem is that we often classify as a means of deflecting our own shame and guilt about situations that went wrong, i.e. we rationalize it. Making a communication failure an issue of "type" and "functions" allows us to distract ourselves from our real emotion about the situation - "I feel guilty for failing to communicate." Instead of saying "this happened because of the conflict between Fi-Fe," it would be more effective to say "we didn't fail to communicate because we're bad or defective people. We just have different communication styles. Now that I know this, I can modify my communication efforts to get my message across better."
    Didnt we graduate from elementary, cant we skip steps? You miss her actions for her words. She stated that she is working on her communication, that its working better, but some people here are stuck on her "statement" of blaming it on Fe communication. I mean please...see "everything" and stop getting stuck on a particular part...I know Jag realizes how inaccurate that can be(fault of mine in a post, not his).

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas;
    I must say that communicating with my ex ISTP has changed massively in the last two weeks-once I learned how to phrase requests in a more Fe way...
    Doesnt sound like she is stuck on anything she is getting attacked for...projection maybe

    I am sorry this whole Fe vs Fi commnication statement that Orobas uses can be likened to "women are from venus, men are from mars" or whatever that book is called, yet so many therapists recomend it.

    Me and my wife tried the whole feeling things and being Fe it got really twisted. It kept coming out I feel when you feel which places blame back on the other person for feeling. Sorry doesnt work for Fe. And are you realling telling an Fi to use her feeling words. Doesnt this just get it out in the open. I have never known a dom/aux Fi user to have a problem with recognizing her own feelings. Sounds more like an Te dom/aux issue.

    I do better with "I think" statements. But when will that ever make it into "books". "Use your think statements" Try it see how it gets twisted around. See if it ends up "I think that you think". Have fun.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #133
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I fully understand your misgivings w/r to applying MBTI and Jungian functions to everything. If one understands a situation on its own terms, that understanding will be more complete, and "functions" just get in the way. However, if one is unfamiliar with the situation, those simplistic functions can help one quickly classify and process issues, rather than just sitting in confusion because one doesn't grok the whole process.
    and it can lead you to consistent solutions. if i can say, this seems like it can be understood in the construct of a Jungian Fe-Fi conflict, then i can refer to how Fe works and how Fi works and (being Fi) try something that would relate more to Fe. maybe that won't work. but if it does, that's awesome, and the theory is useful.

    I don't have the book with me at the moment, but when outlining the direct style, it was described as being "information only" with no emotional content, saying no more or less than needed, while the indirect style worked at preserving relationships, respecting boundaries, and in general tried to make assumptions about how the other might react to various statements. As you can see, with these kinds of definitions, it's easy to make the simplistic (I'd say 0th or 1st order) observation that Te = direct and Fe = indirect. Yes it gets more and more complicated as you get into the details, but it's a good starting point for understanding.
    that's interesting. i was just thinking, that perhaps Te would seem more "direct" than Fe because Te navigates ideas and Fe navigates people. in other words, Te seems more "direct" to us (people) because we can see it more plainly. it's not navigating around us. but if you think of it from a neutral perspective - seeing a Fe dom/aux communicate something to someone else, it can be very direct, because they're communicating taking the personal variables into account. does that make any sense? it's like relativity...

    did i seriously just relate function theory to physics

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    There's no point in assigning blame or responsibilty as it would stunt the creative process.
    and blame stunts ability to heal. blame is a very negative word, both for the blamer and the blamed. carrying blame along is not going to help anyone be healthier inside. if i've said that i'm sorry and am making amends, then what function does blame have anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Anxiety/stress are shame/guilt responses.
    kind of - they're related. shame and guilt are very interpersonal. they require at least two people. anxiety and stress only require one person. anxiety and stress are related to how i feel about myself. shame and guilt are related to how i feel about myself in someone else's eyes.

  4. #134
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @bologna (it won't let me quote you for some reason)

    Agreed, for the most part. I also find that I personally (when I'm not stressed or distracted), automatically will pick indirect communication to request something that isn't too urgent, especially if I don't know if the other person isn't already preoccupied and prone to bending over backwards to help someone. I will however use very direct communication to get things moving and when I'm pressed for a deadline on something important. Imo it's just a matter of using the right type of communication in the right situation, in order to communicate the importance and urgency of the matter, as well as the status of it (personal request, to the benefit of us all, necessary to us all, etc).
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  5. #135
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    My Fi says: I think Fe is the cornerstone of modern man.

    If it were not for group cohesiveness (later on, specialisation RE: Te), man would not have evolved the complex systems in which allow us to 'prosper'* as a species.

    *this is relative, depending on how you look at evaluating the course of human evolution.


    I struggle to see how you can isolate an individual function and look at cause and effect though.

  6. #136
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    @bologna (it won't let me quote you for some reason)

    Agreed, for the most part. I also find that I personally (when I'm not stressed or distracted), automatically will pick indirect communication to request something that isn't too urgent, especially if I don't know if the other person isn't already preoccupied and prone to bending over backwards to help someone. I will however use very direct communication to get things moving and when I'm pressed for a deadline on something important. Imo it's just a matter of using the right type of communication in the right situation, in order to communicate the importance and urgency of the matter, as well as the status of it (personal request, to the benefit of us all, necessary to us all, etc).
    This in bold is what I am seeing in my young ENFPs at work. NeFi is how we understand others, but Te is how we meet deadlines...a baby Te that is about at the level of a ten year old ESTJ...

  7. #137
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    kind of - they're related. shame and guilt are very interpersonal. they require at least two people. anxiety and stress only require one person. anxiety and stress are related to how i feel about myself. shame and guilt are related to how i feel about myself in someone else's eyes.
    Or yourself... judging yourself as you would another person is part of the dissociative response. Guilt is entirely self-contained, as well, as you're judging yourself compared to some standard, and finding yourself deficient.

  8. #138
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I don't judge others. I just see the consequences of their actions and the intentions behind those actions, despite the result. And I base my reaction on those two things, fixing/helping to rectify the situation and/or talking to the person to investigate their intent if need be, to prevent more harm from happening. So to me, guilt is not useful. It stunts me. It makes me scared of acting, out of fear of doing something else wrong.

    The second I do something that harms someone else, I feel sorry for causing it, but I instantly review why I did something and what went wrong in the execution. It usually takes me a split second. If my intent is true and right, guilt and blame are tossed in the bin as they're of no use while I figure out how to navigate this situation better in the future.
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  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    I'm an ENTJ with Fi (inferior) and I know how people are feeling most of the time, it's just that sometimes I don't care, like when they're completely wrong, their feelings are irrelevant.

    An ENFP is even better at knowing how others feel, and they also care most of the time, so your argument is invalid.

    I also don't see how some of you throw out loyalty, caring, love... out of the equation along with Fe. Fi is perfectly capable of all of that, only I think it's better cause it's more authentic.

    I think the world would be more honest, sincere, authentic, realistic and less fake. The world would be more hierarchical and with the "suck it up and work" attitude we'd soon have robots who would do everything for us while we have fun.

    Wait, there's gotta be something bad. I just can't come up with anything. :/
    Even if it tests as your lowest function, I think you use Fe. Everyone does.
    Actually this whole idea that people use either X or Y function makes no sense. Cognitive functions are not like separate Leggo blocks that either you've got it or you haven't.

    Also, a passionate desire to be rid of Fe is exactly one example of it.

    Knowing how someone else feels is on one level something that can never be achieved, but there is a difference between identifying a state and understanding the nuance and causality behind it. To use a different example, when someone looks at a cloud and is asked to draw the cloud, many times the person will draw what is essentially a hieroglyph of that cloud and not a true representation of the literal cloud before them. In this way if someone is sad, there is an "iconic idea of sad" which we can understand and impose onto that person and think we understand their state. The labeling of subjective states as a way to understand is precisely the way to be completely blind to it. Just as no two clouds have the same shape, no two emotional states resonate the same. We can identify to some extent what another is feeling, but to quickly assume we know is to imply this process of labeling the icons of emotions rather than looking at that state from the inside with a sense of empathy. That understanding cannot be placed into words because words too are icons of ideas and not the original idea.
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  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    We don't need to go into the streets to see bigotry, we can just walk through this thread saying, "Oh! Lookee!"
    Look out for "demonic" functions, too. Lol.
    The things that people don't like become their definitions of "the other," which in turn become their definitions of functions that they don't "use." Which in turn colors their perceptions of other people.

    But then, to an extent, I guess it's sort of valid when it's actually well thought-out and not taken too far.

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