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  1. #111
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your comments, but this seems perhaps a bit inflexible.

    Personel evaluations are not usually done in a vacuum. Decisions are typically made in meetings where multiple supervisors are present - where your supervisor represents you. The rating involves a consensus process with the different supervisors.

    Our world is changing at a rapid pace. It is increasingly dynamic. We need people to take initiative, participate in collaborative teams, and get stuff done.To expect clear direction at all times from a supervisor is not realistic. If you ever worked for me, I'd help you to set your own direction but I'd never dictate what you needed to do and make all the decisions because it wouldn't help you to develop (and I'd get annoyed having to provide so much detailed direction).

    Well ... I'm a personal assistant to a millionaire, basically. I have him and two other slightly more junior people, but the other two understand that they are being allowed to share his assistant, if that makes sense. I sit outside his door. I will work for him until he retires or dies, and if he left, I would go with him. So it's not so much like I have a boss, more like I have a king. We're part of a firm and there is a director level admin person who does some paperwork about it, but my evaluation is a formality. There is no team.

    I don't need supervision and hopefully I only need detailed instructions once, but I do need them that first time. I need to know down to the minutest detail exactly how he wants things. Then he gets them just like that every time. And absolutely nobody comes between. If/when anybody does try to come between, all I have to say is "He said he wants it like this," and that's the end of it.

    It's a very different world than what you're talking about. And that's by my choice. I can't work in that mess.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I understand that you are extremely skeptical of standard MBTI and the common usage of Jungian function terminology on this forum, so that probably doesn't mean much either way.
    Those of us who for the last 30 years have known Jungian psychology and the new theories that have followed, tend to be more progressive and open-minded. If you have a problem with that, I certainly don't plan on apologizing for having 3 decades of knowledge under my belt.

    No, it means she doesn't read "Fe" people well. She reads "Fi" people just fine. If you actually attempt to hold a conversation with her instead of suggesting that she uses MBTI to choose tampons [very classy of you, by the way ... perhaps next time you can ask her if it's "that time of the month" for bonus classy points],
    We think nothing alike. You see black and white and I see things on a continuum with many colors and hues. I knew Puppy long before you joined this forum. And can we cut out the pretense please, I'm well aware you two are dating. I shouldn't even be bothering with a man who is here to draw his sword to defend his lover, rather than talk typology.

    I believe it is an interesting hypothesis to suggest that Fe prefers the "indirect" style communication.
    Fe in the Dom position can be as directive as Te. Talk to Protean some time. If you think she is some shrinking violet, indirect, communicator, you better think again. I have a hunch if this wasn't a moderated forum and she wasn't a mod, you would see just how "indirect" Fe can be. Then you might limp off crying to Mommy for the beating you took.

    Just so we're clear, I'm not going to go easy on a post, simply because it's made by your woman. I'd appreciate it if you didn't bring your reactions into a thread that really have nothing to do with typology. If you're bothered by a tampon remark, when it was merely meant as humorous sarcasm, I suggest you man up. It's not the end of the world. We have women in this forum who put the men to shame when it comes to "classy" and crude remarks.

  3. #113
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    YES!!!! YES!!! YES!!! I DONT SPEAK Fe!!!! In my native state I would have been totally lost at what the hell she wanted. It sounds like nebulous intergallactic entities will be flying in to complete the work...Ummm, okay....
    Then basically are saying you CANNOT COMMUNICATE with half the population. Do you understand what that means? It doesn't mean it's Fe users, it means IT'S YOU! Stop making it Fe, when it's you. Furthermore, stop dragging other Fi users into your underworld and blowing it up into some kind of Fe-Fi communication abyss, when it's Orobas's lack of understanding. You're making yourself the standard and everyone else the exception.

    Honestly, I'm not trying to be bitchy when I say this, but perhaps you would benefit from reading some workplace communication books for your own understanding. Get your head out of MBTI and see what else other people have to say that don't use the MBTI framework. You will see that workplace communication issues are more broad spectrum. If you somehow find a way to classify the workplace comm issues into Fe/Ti and Fi/Te then you've defeated the purpose.

    no she had no authority. However...due to Fi, had she asked directly I would have had a very hard time not helping.
    You just don't know how much I'm right now. I thought you said earlier in this thread that you instinctively help those in the greatest need? Is this not a need, or does she need to be emotionally abused, starving and homeless for you to help her? That's why I brought up the whole Heimlich situation.

    OK, I'm going to restate this. There's a project going on that's experiencing serious scope increase. The project manager realizes this and knows she's going to have to enlist help from people outside of the project OR people not within her direct chain of command. You are one of those people.

    Let's step back. You've stated time and time again that you have incredible empathy skills. Now is a good time to use empathy and see this situation from the project manager's POV.

    I'm going to try with my puny Fe empathy skills and see what's up. If I were her this is what I would think. "God, this project is running behind and now I'm going to have to ask for help [insert Pride issues and possible feelings of Incompetence]. Who can I ask? Hmmm, Orobas here may be willing to help. How do I approach her? I'm not in a position to delegate work to her...how can I get her to do this? I don't want her to be offended or think I'm being presumptuous by asking her to do this for me. I don't know how much work she has on her plate. [insert feelings of Self-doubt] I don't know how she's going to react. Ultimately, I don't want her to say no, because I need her help."

    To be quite honest, I don't think that was empathy, I think that was plain ol Fe. I naturally think like that, and I do it within a matter of seconds. To me, it seems perfectly logical if I go through that little thought exercise why you accurately perceived her to be hesitant and indirect in that situation. She has no jurisdiction or authority over you. I think the fact that she came at you telling you the situation rather that rattling of a list of instructions speaks well of her.

    Also, I don't know what School of MBTI thought you follow, but ENFJs are very much within the In Charge Interaction style:
    The theme is getting things accomplished through people. People of this style are focused on results, often taking action quickly. They often have a driving energy with an intention to lead a group to the goal. They make decisions quickly to keep themselves and others on task, on target, and on time. They hate wasting time and having to back track. Mentoring, executing actions, supervising, and mobilizing resources are all ways they get things accomplished. They notice right away what is not working in a situation and become painfully aware of what needs to be fixed, healed, or corrected.
    I'm not saying this as any feather in my cap, because these are things I recognize that when taken too far are my handicaps and faults, but I am far from indirect. Maybe my EJness overpowers my Fe-domness but I am very assertive and that's something people recognize about me fairly quickly. You always attract more flies with honey than vinegar. Maybe you've been in a Te environment so long that you're used to taking acid baths, but believe me in other structures and organizations that are more in tune with the human element that shit will not fly.

    And LOL, a significant portion FJs I know would take one look at you, slide that work right back across the desk and ask who are you and why are you giving me this? No wonder your organization is so toxic, people sound like they're constantly overstepping their boundaries and there is little support for anyone who doesn't comply and complains. Get back in line, soldier!

    Wow....okay so that seconds paragraph is of amazing importance...see in a Te team, if someone comes to me and says I need this done, I automatically assume they are working to max potential and cannot complete themselves, thus need help. In a Te team...see the ISTJs above...They will take on more and more and more work as they are directed at accomplishing the team goal, even if they do so as isolated Te individuals. Not taking the work is typically considered a sign of laziness or lack of being a team player...even if it isnt really your work...as the team goal is at stake-unless you say "I CANNOT do that right now. I do not have time" (note the ENFJ work wasnt part of my Te team goals...it would have been an extra added "team". Once on them team I would be obligated to pick up extra work as needed...as part of the team effort)
    WTF is a "Te team" and how does it operate any differently from any other team project? Is it a team in which most of the members are Te users? All projects have goals, budgets, and timelines that have to be adhered to. I don't know what team projects you work on where it's alright to not be a "team player" and not shoulder your part of the work and take more on if need be. I don't understand what you're saying here.

    In turn I have no problem going to another team member and saying "This part of the work needs to be completed. It falls into your area of responsibility. Can you tell me when and how it will be completed? What can I do to help you complete this goal?" But the ISFJs instead get weird and really pissed at this sort of request....they then say "well I need to talk to my manager and let them decide". ..introducing weeks of project delays as nobody steps up to do the work.
    Wow, I'm starting to get a better understanding of this. I know what this looks like IRL. I know what a person like this looks like. They're the person who is thought of as bossy, who is constantly telling other people what to do, stepping on other people's toes becuase THEIR project is due and everyone else must drop with they're doing to help them. I gave you an example from my personal experience where I've been explicitly told by my director "If anyone else gives you anything to do that's not approved by me or the project lead, don't do it" which in turn leads to it's own set of office politics but whatever. She went into a perfectly logical reason why and that's because our hours are billable and need to be accurately accounted for so me doing something else that's not in the GL isn't being accurately alloted.

    These ISFJs, how do you know they haven't been told something similar? How do you know that they haven't been in situations like this before, where they took on another part of work that wasn't explicitly given to them and were thrown under a bus when things didn't work out? Fingerpointing and accusations are common. You can't understand why they are cautious, reluctant, and seemingly inefficient? What has happened to them to make them act that way? This seems like office politics and CYA mentality to me. If you are all on the same team, but you have no authority to give work to them, you are better served by engaging them in a conversation to see what their workload is like, and then asking if they can work in what you need to have done. This can be done within 15-30 minutes. Even better if you already have a good working relationship with them, they'll say no problem and you don't even have to do anything more than a couple of emails. You know what, that's why I don't trip about going to happy hours or having lunch with people, because in the end it works out for me. It's not done for ulterior motives, but there's definitely positive consequences and advantages. Yeah, it may seem inefficient and extraneous to you, but just do it. You'll be less frustrated.

    Complications include that my company is full of crazy, miserable burnt out people.
    I can see!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It's obvious to me she needs help and is asking for it in her own way. What in God's name is so difficult about this?

    If that's what you think Fe is, Protean and I are both Dom Fe's.

    Puppy, you have a habit of blaming a function for everything from communication problems to choosing the wrong tampon brand.
    Why not be sensible here and realize that it may just be you, who has a problem. It's not that you don't "speak Fe," it's that you don't read people very well.
    Must we turn something so simple, into something ridiculously complex? Or is it that you don't want to make this a Puppy problem?
    If you don't want to make it a Puppy problem, and choose to blame Fe, I'd say that's pretty darn convenient.

    A certain TypeC moderator doesn't want to have sex with me, what function shall I blame?
    I totally agree. Once you start digging and find out what's really going on it seems less and less about MBTI and more about the person's personal issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    As she told the story, with 20/20 hindsight, of course it was "obvious" to all readers, regardless of their aptitude at reading people, that her coworker was asking for help. It would have been kind of a useless story if it weren't "obvious."
    But this situation happens so frequently in a work environment, at least for me it does. It's not some huge thought process I need to go through and I do think it's obvious.
    For my part, a direct question will instantly get my attention and receive a direct answer, yes or no. An indirect approach such as the one Oro outlines might get my attention, but it really depends on my focus and overall context. I know to look for it in theory, but I do not automatically see it, because it's not where my usual focus lies. The Tannen book Oro mentions describes this in more detail, without relying on Jungian functions. In fact it makes it more clear that people who use one style of communication have difficulty reading the other style. Someone making the complaints that her coworker was making might have been just venting and needing emotional affirmation: that would be the "direct" communication style assumption.
    What happens when you have a direct Fe communicator or does no such animal exist? Once again, the way you and Orobas are describing it, Fe=indirect, Te=direct. Is that a claim you all want to make because it seems like a gross oversimplification to me.

    No, it means she doesn't read "Fe" people well. She reads "Fi" people just fine...There are several extremely useful recent threads in which she's participated w/r to "Common XXXX problems" where there is a lot of useful feedback from the various types exploring Fe/Te differences, Fe/Fi differences and so on in a very civil way, leading to very useful feedback on how to deal with said differences.
    I don't expect Orobas to hold the same value set as I do, but only being able to communicate with people who are "like" me is a severe handicap. What is insulting about this whole thing is exactly what Jag outlines above: instead of Orobas owning it as her problem, she extrapolates it to functions. Instead of taking accountability for her communication difficulties, it's suddenly a type issue.

    I believe it is an interesting hypothesis to suggest that Fe prefers the "indirect" style communication. It's worth investigating, to see how true or untrue it is. Even if it doesn't map to Fe or any other function, it can be of general use, like the Five Love Languages. Personally, I have reason to believe it maps to Fe/Ti, as an entity, though I'm completely open to evidence to the contrary.
    If you want to map this to function, (which I think is bologney but I'll play along) and using Orobas as an example, her Fi still sits in front of Te and I would say that Fi is way more indirect that Fe. I won't fuss about Te being more direct than Fe, but Ti seems pretty direct to me as well. Then you've got Se and Si and I'd like to see the argument made that Se is an indirect function...I'd jump on Si being indirect. Would extroverted functions be more direct since they're more visible? As I've already brought up earlier, all EJs fall into the In Charge group and then ESTP. Would In Charge (two of which are Fe users) be the most direct? ENFPs are in the Get Things Going category which engages through enthusiasm and excitment, but so are ESFJs and ENTPs. I would think that if these types are all grouped together they must have equally effective, but different means of leading and engaging people.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #114
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Guys, keep in mind that Fi-users tend to try and figure out what went wrong, try and understand it and classify it (in this case using MBTI) in order to resolve the situation. If you know why somethign happened, if you analyze it, you can adapt to it in a beneficial way.

    Fe-users, I've noticed, work a lot more with 'taking responsibility and accepting blame' in order to do the same thing: adapt to the situation.

    It's not that O isn't taking responsibility, she's, in her own way, trying to find a way to adapt to this situation and make it work for her, and others around her.
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  5. #115
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wow, I'm starting to get a better understanding of this. I know what this looks like IRL. I know what a person like this looks like. They're the person who is thought of as bossy, who is constantly telling other people what to do, stepping on other people's toes becuase THEIR project is due and everyone else must drop with they're doing to help them. I gave you an example from my personal experience where I've been explicitly told by my director "If anyone else gives you anything to do that's not approved by me or the project lead, don't do it" which in turn leads to it's own set of office politics but whatever. She went into a perfectly logical reason why and that's because our hours are billable and need to be accurately accounted for so me doing something else that's not in the GL isn't being accurately alloted.

    These ISFJs, how do you know they haven't been told something similar? How do you know that they haven't been in situations like this before, where they took on another part of work that wasn't explicitly given to them and were thrown under a bus when things didn't work out? Fingerpointing and accusations are common. You can't understand why they are cautious, reluctant, and seemingly inefficient? What has happened to them to make them act that way? This seems like office politics and CYA mentality to me. If you are all on the same team, but you have no authority to give work to them, you are better served by engaging them in a conversation to see what their workload is like, and then asking if they can work in what you need to have done. This can be done within 15-30 minutes. Even better if you already have a good working relationship with them, they'll say no problem and you don't even have to do anything more than a couple of emails. You know what, that's why I don't trip about going to happy hours or having lunch with people, because in the end it works out for me. It's not done for ulterior motives, but there's definitely positive consequences and advantages. Yeah, it may seem inefficient and extraneous to you, but just do it. You'll be less frustrated.
    I think you've hit on a big problem in the modern workplace. Too often, supervisors are so concerned with their own image, that whenever problems arise, they're quick to throw subordinates under the bus. However, the supervisor is ultimately responsible - that's why she has the higher rank. When subordinates know that their supervisor is both providing guidance and willing to take the bullet when things go topsy-turvy, that legitimizes the supervisor's authority and makes everything run more smoothly.

    This actually was a huge problem in the airline industry once. Cultures that had two characteristics (large power distance (subordinates did not address their superiors on equal terms) and shame as a basis of social control) had much greater crash rates, and much more catastrophic crash rates, than those with other characteristics. Copilots would indirectly hint at problems to the captain, fearing that the captain would interpret this as an attack on his piloting skills, and as a result, imminent catastrophe would go unnoticed. The industry, worldwide, took drastic steps to correct the issue - comprehensive training requirements to equalize the flight environment, and making the use of English mandatory while in-flight (English doesn't have many class distinctions in its vocabulary). As a result, crash rates in these cultures reduced drastically.

    Harry Truman's famous desk plaque read "The Buck Stops Here." This statement is the essence of leadership - a leader is ultimately responsible for everything that goes on beneath her, both successes and failures. Any workplace will inevitably have failures, and yet, the current cultural paradigm is that any sort of failure will lead to a permanent stain on one's reputation, rather than represent an opportunity for learning. Leadership isn't in having a perfect record - it's the ability to handle those failures.

  6. #116
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Guys, keep in mind that Fi-users tend to try and figure out what went wrong, try and understand it and classify it (in this case using MBTI) in order to resolve the situation. If you know why somethign happened, if you analyze it, you can adapt to it in a beneficial way.

    Fe-users, I've noticed, work a lot more with 'taking responsibility and accepting blame' in order to do the same thing: adapt to the situation.

    It's not that O isn't taking responsibility, she's, in her own way, trying to find a way to adapt to this situation and make it work for her, and others around her.
    Hmmm. I also try to figure out what went wrong, try to understand it so that I can adapt. I really don't like to make the same mistake twice. But I also do the Fe thing too. Personal accountability and taking responsibility for your own actions is helpful towards understanding a situation and the role you play in it.

    ETA: This reminds me of that scene from Stepbrothers where they ask their parents can they bunk their beds and the parents are like we don't care what you do, and they're still confused, and then the father says you all are adults I don't care what you do. But the guys are still waiting for an explicit and unequivocal YES YOU CAN BUNK YOUR BEDS.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #117
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Guys, keep in mind that Fi-users tend to try and figure out what went wrong, try and understand it and classify it (in this case using MBTI) in order to resolve the situation. If you know why somethign happened, if you analyze it, you can adapt to it in a beneficial way.

    Fe-users, I've noticed, work a lot more with 'taking responsibility and accepting blame' in order to do the same thing: adapt to the situation.

    It's not that O isn't taking responsibility, she's, in her own way, trying to find a way to adapt to this situation and make it work for her, and others around her.
    The problem is that we often classify as a means of deflecting our own shame and guilt about situations that went wrong, i.e. we rationalize it. Making a communication failure an issue of "type" and "functions" allows us to distract ourselves from our real emotion about the situation - "I feel guilty for failing to communicate." Instead of saying "this happened because of the conflict between Fi-Fe," it would be more effective to say "we didn't fail to communicate because we're bad or defective people. We just have different communication styles. Now that I know this, I can modify my communication efforts to get my message across better."

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    @ protean: True, but where a Fi-user will be more likely to build a theory of it and figuring out how exactly it works (like a Ti-user would), a Fe-user seems to be more focused on prevention and adaptation for the future, in this case through the use of taking responsibility (like a Te-user would). Both end up with the same result: adaptation to the situation, but in the case of the Fi-user it comes from putting puzzle pieces together and understanding what was missing in that (theoretic) puzzle before, whereas with Fe-users it seems to come from working within the (practical) system and refining that system to include this situation for next time.

    Since Fe (like Te) includes actions and practical application, taking responsibility and blame is part of rectifying the situation, whereas Fi just backs up, refines the theory to then go back and figure out the next part. It's mostly experimenting and tinkering to get it just right, something you build at in your mind. There's no point in assigning blame or responsibilty as it would stunt the creative process. However, implementing the theory to then see it go wrong and harming someone is appologized for. The reasoning and questioning and research before however...not so much, as it's part of who the individual is. And to be apologetic for who you are as an individual, to say the least, rather unhealthy and self-destructive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Guys, keep in mind that Fi-users tend to try and figure out what went wrong, try and understand it and classify it (in this case using MBTI) in order to resolve the situation. If you know why somethign happened, if you analyze it, you can adapt to it in a beneficial way.

    Fe-users, I've noticed, work a lot more with 'taking responsibility and accepting blame' in order to do the same thing: adapt to the situation.

    It's not that O isn't taking responsibility, she's, in her own way, trying to find a way to adapt to this situation and make it work for her, and others around her.
    With me I step back from the situation to view it objectively and will take blame where blame is due, but dont become so engulfed in the adaptation that I stop trying to figure out what went wrong and understand it. Taking the blame is like peeling back part of the onion, its part of the process. Uncovering the situation and finding out all of what went wrong. Its kinda like letting go as to me what matters is that I know what I did wrong and the acknowledgement of blame from the other person acknowledges that they agree. We know one side of the story.

    In order to bring in this method of adaptation though you have to realize when its not working and when the other person just lets go of accepting there side of the adaptation. In this case this method does not work and another method needs to used that is more straight forward and blunt. This is where me and my wife are learning to work better in working with other people, or learning from each other. Her being a J is more straight forward with Fe rules and I am more lets try and see how the person responds to and adapt. In certain cases this process is flipped between us and I may be more blunt in an introverted way or her less blunt in an extroverted way.

    edit: bolded part added
    Im out, its been fun

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    The problem is that we often classify as a means of deflecting our own shame and guilt about situations that went wrong, i.e. we rationalize it. Making a communication failure an issue of "type" and "functions" allows us to distract ourselves from our real emotion about the situation - "I feel guilty for failing to communicate." Instead of saying "this happened because of the conflict between Fi-Fe," it would be more effective to say "we didn't fail to communicate because we're bad or defective people. We just have different communication styles. Now that I know this, I can modify my communication efforts to get my message across better."
    Honestly, those mean the same to me. I actually used to feel guilty about this. And it paralyzed me, made me useless and scared to repeat the mistake, so I'd try to stay far away from the situation. No longer. Instead, I look at it with curiosity and try to work out logically what went wrong. Way more productive. And yeah, then it goes: huh, it's due ot the conflict between Fi-Fe....so how does that work? And then the next thought will be: great, so we're just different in communication style, it's not coz anyone is being an ass. Let's see how we can fix that together, and flesh out what the trigger was
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