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  1. #101
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's funny because I do get very irritated with "when do you think you might be finished?" because that shows completely deficient instructions to begin with. Give the deadline when you give the assignment. Then I will be finished when you told me to be finished.
    The tends not to work in high-tech fields. There is (usually) no obvious size to a particular task. In general, the task is at some particular point A, and the manager requires that it be at a new point B in order to be complete. Quite simply, if you don't have the resources to get to point B within a month, telling someone to "finish" in a week is very counterproductive.

    Now, include into the mix the fact that the manager probably does not have a good idea how long the task "ought" to take. No one has done it before. It's new work. It's research. There is no "routine." Yes, if you've seen it done the same way 20 times before and the average was about a month, then you know to say "have it for me in a month." But those metrics are difficult to gain in the technical realm.

    Curiously, my workplace has a clever way to gain them. The developers say roughly how big a task is, within an order of magnitude, and such a quantity is not strictly time based. Management can then look at a past history based on such (totally arbitrary) quantities and make remarkably accurate predictions about speed, even to the point of predicting how much "unforeseen" work will need to be done. In the end, no one specifies a deadline, but instead product management specifies how much can be done in how much time, and asks the vested business interests (marketing, customer relations, etc.) to prioritize based on the relative costs. That result gets returned to development and we just make stuff happen based on that feedback, and because of the product management intermediary, everyone feels like they have a good feel for how long various tasks/products will take.

    However, my workplace aside, the usual tactic is to ask the (engineer) how long it will take to do something, and the engineer will usually come back with some (time-padded) estimate. The manager then pads it a bit more (because engineers never pad enough), and that guess is roughly how long it takes. This method tends not to work with micromanaging managers, however: they'll come in halfway through and change their minds on half a dozen things, and then wonder why the product wasn't done on time, not realizing that they reset several processes back to square one.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yeah, I couldn't work there. At least I know it.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Interesting. I don't view that as indirect communication. If someone is saying to me, "we will need somebody to help out...We arent sure who will do it....the work will need to be done ..." I interpret that as someone asking for help. Do you find it difficult to understand subtle/indirect communication?
    It's obvious to me she needs help and is asking for it in her own way. What in God's name is so difficult about this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    YES!!!! YES!!! YES!!! I DONT SPEAK Fe!!!! In my native state I would have been totally lost at what the hell she wanted. It sounds like nebulous intergallactic entities will be flying in to complete the work...Ummm, okay....
    If that's what you think Fe is, Protean and I are both Dom Fe's.

    Puppy, you have a habit of blaming a function for everything from communication problems to choosing the wrong tampon brand.
    Why not be sensible here and realize that it may just be you, who has a problem. It's not that you don't "speak Fe," it's that you don't read people very well.
    Must we turn something so simple, into something ridiculously complex? Or is it that you don't want to make this a Puppy problem?
    If you don't want to make it a Puppy problem, and choose to blame Fe, I'd say that's pretty darn convenient.


    A certain TypeC moderator doesn't want to have sex with me, what function shall I blame?

  4. #104
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    A certain TypeC moderator doesn't want to have sex with me, what function shall I blame?
    Your erectile dysfunction?

  5. #105
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Your erectile dysfunction?

  6. #106
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Yeah, that's a very different environment from what I have chosen to work in. I am not and never will be the boss, and that's how I like it. The only decision I make is in choosing who I will work for. Once I consent to work for somebody, we understand that I will take their direction, and there is zero friction as long as they can give clear directions. If people above me have different ideas about how to do things, I won't move until the one who writes my review tells me what he/she wants.
    Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your comments, but this seems perhaps a bit inflexible.

    Personel evaluations are not usually done in a vacuum. Decisions are typically made in meetings where multiple supervisors are present - where your supervisor represents you. The rating involves a consensus process with the different supervisors.

    Our world is changing at a rapid pace. It is increasingly dynamic. We need people to take initiative, participate in collaborative teams, and get stuff done.To expect clear direction at all times from a supervisor is not realistic. If you ever worked for me, I'd help you to set your own direction but I'd never dictate what you needed to do and make all the decisions because it wouldn't help you to develop (and I'd get annoyed having to provide so much detailed direction).

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  7. #107
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    It's obvious to me she needs help and is asking for it in her own way. What in God's name is so difficult about this?
    As she told the story, with 20/20 hindsight, of course it was "obvious" to all readers, regardless of their aptitude at reading people, that her coworker was asking for help. It would have been kind of a useless story if it weren't "obvious."

    For my part, a direct question will instantly get my attention and receive a direct answer, yes or no. An indirect approach such as the one Oro outlines might get my attention, but it really depends on my focus and overall context. I know to look for it in theory, but I do not automatically see it, because it's not where my usual focus lies. The Tannen book Oro mentions describes this in more detail, without relying on Jungian functions. In fact it makes it more clear that people who use one style of communication have difficulty reading the other style. Someone making the complaints that her coworker was making might have been just venting and needing emotional affirmation: that would be the "direct" communication style assumption.

    If that's what you think Fe is, Protean and I are both Dom Fe's.
    FWIW, I agree with this assessment. I understand that you are extremely skeptical of standard MBTI and the common usage of Jungian function terminology on this forum, so that probably doesn't mean much either way.

    Puppy, you have a habit of blaming a function for everything from communication problems to choosing the wrong tampon brand.
    Why not be sensible here and realize that it may just be you, who has a problem. It's not that you don't "speak Fe," it's that you don't read people very well.
    No, it means she doesn't read "Fe" people well. She reads "Fi" people just fine. If you actually attempt to hold a conversation with her instead of suggesting that she uses MBTI to choose tampons [very classy of you, by the way ... perhaps next time you can ask her if it's "that time of the month" for bonus classy points], this might become more clear to you. There are several extremely useful recent threads in which she's participated w/r to "Common XXXX problems" where there is a lot of useful feedback from the various types exploring Fe/Te differences, Fe/Fi differences and so on in a very civil way, leading to very useful feedback on how to deal with said differences.

    Must we turn something so simple, into something ridiculously complex? Or is it that you don't want to make this a Puppy problem?
    If you don't want to make it a Puppy problem, and choose to blame Fe, I'd say that's pretty darn convenient.
    It's clear to me she's just trying to figure out the behavior in terms of the functions. Perhaps it doesn't map to a function: that is useful data, too.

    I believe it is an interesting hypothesis to suggest that Fe prefers the "indirect" style communication. It's worth investigating, to see how true or untrue it is. Even if it doesn't map to Fe or any other function, it can be of general use, like the Five Love Languages. Personally, I have reason to believe it maps to Fe/Ti, as an entity, though I'm completely open to evidence to the contrary.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    "I have to stick up for my lover"

  9. #109
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    "I have to stick up for my lover"
    Are you sticking up for your lover's Ti/Fe? Or Te/Fi?

    I don't think it's anywhere near possible to convoulte basic interpersonal communication skills moreso than can be done with MBTI.

    It's about as fruitful as translating a hillbilly poker game into politically correct gibberish.

    Peace to the big cat.
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    MBTI -> (E) 77.14% | (i) 22.86% ; (S) 60% | (n) 40% ; (T) 72.22% | (f) 27.78% ; (P) 51.43% | (j) 48.57%
    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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  10. #110
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Are you sticking up for your lover's Ti/Fe? Or Te/Fi?

    I don't think it's anywhere near possible to convoulte basic interpersonal communication skills moreso than can be done with MBTI.

    It's about as fruitful as translating a hillbilly poker game into politically correct gibberish.

    Peace to the big cat.
    baaaaaaaaaahahaha.

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