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  1. #91
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Amazon.com: That's Not What I Meant!: How Conversational Style Makes or Breaks Relationships (9780345340900): Deborah Tannen: Books

    This is a book written by a linguistics PhD where she calls out almost every single instance we have discussed here. She is Fi and does so from that perspective. She splits people into direct and indirect communicators among other things.

    It is overflowing with awesome examples, but sad as she could not find a root theory, just examples....Jung had the root theory the whole time.
    Read the book, own the book, loved the book, and yes, she is Fi, that's it.

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #92
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post

    I do recall an ENFJ coming to my desk about six weeks back-they dont stay long where I work as it seems to hurt them inside...we chatted for a few minutes...then she started talking about extra work that needed to be done...she described it in detail..."we will need somebody to help out...We arent sure who will do it....the work will need to be done ..." all the time hinting that I needed to do the work. I let her do this for a bit. I understood what she wanted, but I didnt want to do the extra work. I didnt have time to take on more work. Finally she left...never having asked me directly to help out. If she had asked directly, I would have felt obligated to help her.
    Do you consider the above an example of communication failure?

  3. #93
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Amazing.

    Because on my read, I thought there was someone who wanted someone who wanted to work overtime/on that project. The opportunity and need were shown to you. You didn't respond. So the person moved on to someone else. There was no communication breakdown. You knew she wanted someone to work and you knew you didn't want to.

    Tell about the ISTJ and the ISFJ!

  4. #94
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Amazing.

    Because on my read, I thought there was someone who wanted someone who wanted to work overtime/on that project. The opportunity and need were shown to you. You didn't respond. So the person moved on to someone else. There was no communication breakdown. You knew she wanted someone to work and you knew you didn't want to.

    Tell about the ISTJ and the ISFJ!
    Hmmm, So..first the example was shown to illustrate indirect communication in an ENFJ.

    Bet yeah, I get what you are saying...but she was resource strapped in a project management role...thus in need of help via procurement of resources. There is no overtime as we are all on salary. In my case I understood the Need. But a Te dom would have been clueless. The only reason I knew of the Need was hanging out here and learning form you guys... After a few minutes of her chatting, it was a very odd "Ah-hah, so she seems to want something from me" moment. "Ohhh, she wants ME to do it....wow!"

    Without Type C background though, would have had no idea she wanted ME to do it. I actually would have assumed she was venting and then affirmed that I would be stressed in that situation too and I hoped it all worked out for her, made a few suggestions about how she accomplish the work in a more efficient way, then tried to make her go away so I could get back to work....

    She got stuck doing it all herself.

    The ISFJs do this odd thing...they really want to please others. They also modify the message dependent on the recipient. This is great at interpersonal communication but can be problematic if it is an SOP, revenue, project timeline update or anything very factual.

    In this case she would prepare documents and seek feedback from the ISTJs. The ISTJs would provide very blunt Te feedback. She assumed they were upset with her or being rude. She begin to try and make them happier by being even nicer-thus seeking even more feedback. The ISTJs saw this as being incompetent. Thus they begin to be even more direct in critique and frustrated at having to "redo" her work.

    They assumed her "incomplete" work-her attempt to allow them to contribute and edit more, her meetings to try and work together-was laziness and incompetence, an inability to work independently, combined with a failure to deliver on her part. Why couldnt she just do her work?

    Her attempts at Fe rapport were met with a Te judgment of inefficiency and lack of required job skills.

    Both sides pushed further and further in the wrong direction. Eventually she just froze as nothing she could do would please them...so she did nothing. She was just quiver and redo things over and over again... She was an emo basketcase and totally useless. Totally unwilling to make any independent choice as she took the direct criticism she received as signs of being on trouble...they hurt her very much...

    We have many, many isfjs who fall into this cycle...

  5. #95
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Ok, but is that necessarily a problem? Painful to watch, I'm sure, but ... the ISFJ does not belong in your organization if she can't toughen up and "just do her work" and learn to get her personal needs met elsewhere. She needs clearer instruction. The desire to please is no less.

    Maybe it's because I've worked so long, I have trouble understanding that the ENFJ got "stuck" doing her own work -- she wanted someone who wanted to do the work with her. In the absence of that, she had to do it herself -- that would have been her second choice, but it's hardly a disaster. Sometimes you don't want to have to force or coerce another person; it's not worth it. The only time it comes down to that is if you know for fact you cannot meet deadline without help, and then things crisp up, right? Then things become more directive.

    ETA: We have ISFJs who fall into that cycle, too -- the ISTJ complains that she "just shut down on me and refused to do my work." It's kind of funny. That's exactly how I got my ISTJ, and you know why I have her? Because of my soft heart. Literally because I pitied her because she can't help it that she's such a bitch that she ran through so many secretaries in a year's time that she was getting a horrible reputation and nobody wanted to do anything for her at all.

  6. #96
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hmmm, So..first the example was shown to illustrate indirect communication in an ENFJ.

    Bet yeah, I get what you are saying...but she was resource strapped in a project management role...thus in need of help via procurement of resources. There is no overtime as we are all on salary. In my case I understood the Need. But a Te dom would have been clueless. The only reason I knew of the Need was hanging out here and learning form you guys... After a few minutes of her chatting, it was a very odd "Ah-hah, so she seems to want something from me" moment. "Ohhh, she wants ME to do it....wow!"
    Interesting. I don't view that as indirect communication. If someone is saying to me, "we will need somebody to help out...We arent sure who will do it....the work will need to be done ..." I interpret that as someone asking for help. Do you find it difficult to understand subtle/indirect communication? It's funny, this reminds me of a CPR class I took where they told us before you can perform the Heimlich Maneuver on someone, you have to ask if they're choking first and get some positive indication from them that they are in fact choking.

    More importantly, did she have the authority to delegate work to you? If so, I'm surprised you have the option to refuse. Perhaps that's why she hesitated from directly telling you to do this and that, hoping instead that saying what she did was enough to move you to action.

    If someone who is not my supervisor or project lead tells me to do something when I'm already inundated with work, I don't have to do anything they say. It's assy, but I don't have to do it. Another layer is I've been told by my director if anyone other than her or the project lead tells me to do something, I don't have to do it. All requests for scope increase are to go through those people.

    So there are some complications to your vignette that may be indicative of more things at work than Fe using indirect communication methods.

    But seriously, I can't help but think there is some deliberate obtuseness going on. I've worked with TJs and FPs who have said similar things the ENFJ said in meetings and have been meet with "I'm willing to step in and lead a hand with this project." People are capable of interpreting what that woman was asking. I've seen more people get offended for people telling them what to do who have no jurisdiction over them than the converse.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #97
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Ok, but is that necessarily a problem? Painful to watch, I'm sure, but ... the ISFJ does not belong in your organization if she can't toughen up and "just do her work" and learn to get her personal needs met elsewhere. She needs clearer instruction. The desire to please is no less.

    Maybe it's because I've worked so long, I have trouble understanding that the ENFJ got "stuck" doing her own work -- she wanted someone who wanted to do the work with her. In the absence of that, she had to do it herself -- that would have been her second choice, but it's hardly a disaster. Sometimes you don't want to have to force or coerce another person; it's not worth it. The only time it comes down to that is if you know for fact you cannot meet deadline without help, and then things crisp up, right? Then things become more directive.
    The ISFJ was a bit personal for me, as I love her very, very much. It hurt to watch this happen to her. Let's assume her name is "Sara austin".

    Our ISTJs, with no knowledge of typology, have taken to calling out the other ISFJs in our organizations as "Oh god, it's another Sara Austin". She has become a symbol of a group of people who are considered in ineffectual and useless. Typological classification, without any MBTI test needed-yet they only apply the label to the ISFJs....

    Wrt the enfj, I guess it is about efficiency and where that individuals time is best spent. She wasted time...and thus money...indirectly requesting help. Then even more money was wasted as she spent her time doing work that could have been delegated....an opportunity cost as she got stuck doing some fairly trivial tasks involving labeling, when she could have been better utilized interacting with customers...

    another cool example...we will have a large meeting...30 folks from diverse departments. Everyone is expected to speak up and form a final working path forward. Meeting minutes are taken, tasks assigned and we all begin work. The ISFJs will go back to their department, share the task, then be redirected by their manager to do things differently from the meeting. Thus a week later we all remeet to find out they not only made no progress, but that we all wasted our efforts working in a direction that their group has decided not to follow....a Te user would have explained directly why the direction chosen was important and should be maintained, but the isfjs will tend to allow the manager to redirect...

    For more fun, the same meeting example above, but an ESFJ will actually say nothing...but then later meet one on one with executive management and force a replanning of an entire project....if they had spoken up at the meeting, we could have remodifed things as a group and found a way to meet their needs....but indirectly it ends up a train wreck wasting 30 individuals times 40 hours=at least $30,000 for each week this happens.

    Another way I see Fe indirectness is that EXTPs will not speak up over Te doms and auxes in meetings...or they will soften the message to the point that the Te dom aux has no idea how very severe the issue is...thus does nothing to address it. The ENTP ends up frustrated..."how can they not see how badly we need new resource?" The Te dom is oblivious to there ever being a need for resources as all they saw was Fe mannerisms that seemed very amiable with no sense of urgency.

    Even worse is if you stack a Te dom/aux over a manager who is Fe aux...the Fe user uses indirect terms or tried to put the Te dom at ease...forgetting to emphasize the project is a giant FAIL. The Te dom goes apeshit when he gets a very direct version from an INTJ.

    The ENTPs think the ENFPs are reactionary and not to be trusted. The ENFPs think the EXTPs are backstabbing and playing at politics.

    An ENFP came to me the other day and told me that she was tired of an ESTP "telling her about her feelings. I dont care how she feels, I need the work done". I just laughed as I recognized the ESTP was legitimately trying to convey an issue in Fe terms.......it is craziness.

    My ENTP and I just sit and watch the patterns unfold...we have learned to predict what will happen...

  8. #98
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think people on this forum EXAGGERATE miscommunications. Noise and interference are natural byproducts of communication, just like carbon dioxide is a natural byproduct of respiration. If you're saying that the reason why miscommunications exist is (majorly?) attributed to the differences in these functions, then I disagree....there are so many more factors that make a much bigger difference. You'd think the other function pairs Se/Ni and Si/Ne would have just as much difficulty, but for some reason people with their own agendas seem to lay the blame at this.

    Two of my closest friends for life are Te/Fi and we're astoundingly seamless as far as our communications are concerned.
    Poetry in motion.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    The ISFJs will tend to allow their manager to redirect? Isn't that what the manager is supposed to do, direct? So if you agree to accept their management, why would you not allow your manager to redirect? If it's done wrong, that is not your fault, it is the manager's fault. There's no appreciation of chain of command there at all. Unless your organization is just not hierarchical at all -- but that doesn't tend to attract ISFJs, who like firm leadership.

    And those ISTJs will be humbled. There will come a day when they will wish they had a Sara Austin to be loyal to them and protect their profile in the organization by not allowing a bad word to be said about them and acting happy no matter what it takes to be working with them. People who can't handle people tend not to be promoted...
    Last edited by Tiltyred; 08-15-2010 at 07:26 PM.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's a very different environment from what I have chosen to work in. I am not and never will be the boss, and that's how I like it. The only decision I make is in choosing who I will work for. Once I consent to work for somebody, we understand that I will take their direction, and there is zero friction as long as they can give clear directions. If people above me have different ideas about how to do things, I won't move until the one who writes my review tells me what he/she wants.

    It's funny because I do get very irritated with "when do you think you might be finished?" because that shows completely deficient instructions to begin with. Give the deadline when you give the assignment. Then I will be finished when you told me to be finished.

    The ISTJ is not difficult once you understand that there can be no relationship. If you bring her coffee, she gets suspicious, if you offer her a cookie, she thinks there's something wrong with it, otherwise why wouldn't you want it for youself, if you see she's been crying and ask her if there's anything you can do, she gets pissy, so ... who/what she wants to be is not for me to say. I would no more make her a list than the man in the moon.

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