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Thread: the Fi bias

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Who most resents having their own emotions and guilt used against them? Te auxs and doms. (please refer to ayn rand)
    Ha! Too true.

    Thus to effectively teach them a god damned thing, you have to be REAL. Any sense that you are not REAL, or are planning and plotting...and they assume Te and respond assertively, defensivly, and even aggressively.

    Thus to truly impact their judgment on an issue, you must be REAL. Whatever issue it is you feel strongly on....it has to REAL...and it has to force them to hurt just a little via their own internal Fi mirror, small though it may be.

    You effectively teach them how to not hurt others with Te, by showing them how they have hurt you. They dont typically mean to hurt others...they just seek effeciency which can sometimes hurt others.

    Thus this exceptionally strong desire for Fi to be highly authentic may derive from an evolutionary perogative for Fi-Te social interactions to rest upon Te being used as the controlling factor, while Fi is an effective tool for empathic communications.
    YES OMG some people HAVE TO BE CONFRONTED and all the Fe nudging in the world isn't going to work on them!!! Not everybody, just certain individuals. I agree, I totally agree.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Christ, I even got in trouble for laughing! I didn't even DO anything.
    haha, crazy teachers... I got in trouble for sneezing... what are they on?

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Yeah, that is my experience of Fe...if they actually like me or feel close to me I get their "real" side. When I gave that example I wasn't trying to say that's how I feel personally, but as someone with Fi I could imagine someone else with Fi feeling that way, and I think I may have experienced that feeling myself when I was very young, like in my teens.
    Sorry if it seemed like I was disagreeing/arguing. I actually agree with you most of time (the previous post included). I was just elaborating on 21% post.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    haha, crazy teachers... I got in trouble for sneezing... what are they on?
    I used to get in trouble for reading novels.


    Sorry if it seemed like I was disagreeing/arguing. I actually agree with you most of time (the previous post included). I was just elaborating on 21% post.
    Oh, no hon, that wasn't directed toward you. I was just clarifying. I'm here to over-explain all week.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Nah, ENFPs socialize with many too. :rolli: I used to always get in trouble in school for talking or passing notes.

    It's not about socializing. It's about Fe's ability to make you feel totally nurtured, like you are the only person in the world, and Fi is susceptible to wanting to feel "special."
    Marm, you really need to stop taking my posts at face value.
    I was poking fun at the entire situation.

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    Isn't it a nfp tendency to get kind of wordy when trying to figure something out? Ask an sfp about Fi, it is like getting blood out of a stone. I think it is in just exploring their Fi and the tendency of nfp to use flowery words from which the seeming Fi bias blossoms and flourishes like rose bushes tangled in the fence of the forum confines.

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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I warn you-I havent read this thread-just the OP. Also I am a bit drunk as I am sad as i think I may have to kill my dog.

    Fi is likely the point of an Fi users ego. It defines us internally.

    Fe is a step removed from an Fe users ego. For ENTPs, Ti is likely the ego...I dont really know about the rest of the Fe crowd.

    Subjectively on Fi -I feel an exceptional strong need to be honest-even if painful to another. I feel an exceptional aversion to lies or emotional manipulation. The thought of using another person's emotions to make them alter their course of action makes me feel ill. To plan such a thing-it makes me feel disgusted with myself. Fi is REAL. It is honest, open, genunie, even if that means displays of emo-puking insanity.

    Objectively on Fi-Fi subconsciously manipulates others via emotional reactivity in ENFPs. Who is the intended audience and what is the objective?

    The audience is Te doms and Auxs. The (totally unplanned, intended, totally reactive) goal of Fi authenticity seems to be to interact with Te users.

    Who plans every single thing they do in objective terms? Te doms and auxs
    Who often hurts others due to their own oblivious desire to push forward Te objectives? Te doms and auxs
    Who most resents having their own emotions and guilt used against them? Te auxs and doms. (please refer to ayn rand)

    Thus to effectively teach them a god damned thing, you have to be REAL. Any sense that you are not REAL, or are planning and plotting...and they assume Te and respond assertively, defensivly, and even aggressively.

    Thus to truly impact their judgment on an issue, you must be REAL. Whatever issue it is you feel strongly on....it has to REAL...and it has to force them to hurt just a little via their own internal Fi mirror, small though it may be.

    You effectively teach them how to not hurt others with Te, by showing them how they have hurt you. They dont typically mean to hurt others...they just seek effeciency which can sometimes hurt others.

    Thus this exceptionally strong desire for Fi to be highly authentic may derive from an evolutionary perogative for Fi-Te social interactions to rest upon Te being used as the controlling factor, while Fi is an effective tool for empathic communications.

    Subjectively on Fe-it feels really weird to me...it feels controlling


    Objectively on Fe
    -It is just as effective a system of social interaction as the above mentioned Fi-Te paradigm. It uses control of others based upon an Fe mechanism of emotional influence consciously rather than subconsciously...It isnt bad or good....just effective at maintaining a social balance, a mechanisms for maintaining social equilibrium. There is nothing Wrong with Fe or Fi...they are just meant to be used in different arenas on different audiences...


    So what's left?


    Why are these two audiences mixed? Each seems totally sufficient and rational if left alone....but why are the two stuck together? I really dont understand this at all....why would evolution find an advantage in mixing the two???
    This explains a lot of issues with the ESTJ. So, what are you supposed to do then if you don't want the Te user to respond back aggressively and forcefully? What I thought was being authentic and saying, "Ouch that hurts, please stop." appeared to be seen as more of guilt-tripping or making him feel bad or nit-picking even if I tried different approaches. I see the same kind of dynamic with my ENFJ mother and ISTJ father. Any solutions for that?

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    Isn't it a nfp tendency to get kind of wordy when trying to figure something out? Ask an sfp about Fi, it is like getting blood out of a stone. I think it is in just exploring their Fi and the tendency of nfp to use flowery words from which the seeming Fi bias blossoms and flourishes like rose bushes tangled in the fence of the forum confines.
    Hehe, I see what you did thar!

    True but.

  8. #48
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Yeah, but I want to point out there’s a distinct difference between needing to feel authentic oneself and having authentic feelings for other people. It’s entirely possible not to feel particularly compelled to feel authentic oneself AND have completely authentic feelings for other people. The two are not interdependent. So unless you’re trying to explain that Fi types systematically belittle Fe in attempt to feel more authentic (by disparaging the authenticity of others, rather than doing the work of finding ways to feel authentic by being authentic- which is just the way people sometimes go about it sometimes), then I’m not entirely sure what you’re point is in bringing this up.

    Or is there some other connection between needing to feel authentic oneself and having authentic feelings towards others that I'm not seeing?

    I've never said that those weren't different and I totally agree with you. I also think you have to reconsider what you perceive to be belittling. I know it comes off as such, but I think it's just merely frustration and venting that happens at that point and *their attempt* to understand something that is clearly foreign to them and...well, getting it wrong

    Also, most Fi-people I know are rarely aware that they supposedly play such 'social games' as trying to make themselves feel better than others. It's not something most of us (I think) consciously try to do or aware of. Often it's a mix of frustration, rebellion and a nagging curiosity to figure things out.

    That being said, I brought it up coz this *is* a forum on MBTI. And, the type descriptions of INFP and ENFP have 'authenticity' in like the first three lines of each description or something. It's a big part of Fi, simple as that. That doesn't mean that the other functions cannot be authentic or do not support authenticity, it just means that Fi is geared towards that feeling. That also means that, when you discuss different approaches of how to deal with people in relationships (aka the F-function), you'll find people trying to flesh out the difference between Fe and Fi (as we are doing now, sorta), and one of those that will always come up is that authenticity, as it is such an inherent part of Fi. Again, that doesn't mean it's excluded in Fe, but clearly it presents itself in another way and isn't at the core of what Fe is. The emphasis of descriptions on Fe seems to be efficiency in social rules and group dynamics. While Fi users may have their own ways of dealing with people and many Fi users have a great desire to please others, the need for authenticity and being true to yourself has a greater emphasis, therefore it's more discussed.

    And, as marm pointed out, consequently Fi gets dubbed self-absorbed, self-centered and what have you, despite the fact that many Fi-users bend over backwards to jump through hoops to please others. We too love pleasing people coz happy people makes us happy. We just do it in a different way and for different reasons than Fe-users do

    Similarly, you do feel authentically towards people, you just do it in different ways and for different reasons than we do and, once more, harmony tends to take priority over being authentic with Fe-users.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    This explains a lot of issues with the ESTJ. So, what are you supposed to do then if you don't want the Te user to respond back aggressively and forcefully? What I thought was being authentic and saying, "Ouch that hurts, please stop." appeared to be seen as more of guilt-tripping or making him feel bad or nit-picking even if I tried different approaches. I see the same kind of dynamic with my ENFJ mother and ISTJ father. Any solutions for that?
    Actually,imo, if you say what you've typed here in a sincere voice, without expecting anything from him when yo usaid it, just as a matter of fact, you have a very good chance of getting him to stop in his tracks and pay attention to what it is he's doing wrong. But then be ready to explain to him just what it was that offended you (as you tend to do really well here) and why it is important to you, without expecting him to know these things. Just walk him through it
    They tend to want things to be efficient. This includes communication. If you can tell him specifically what words or phrases to rephrase in what way and why, it will probably be no effort to him to change that for you, especially if you are somewhat important to him
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  9. #49
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I'd really like to get into this topic because it's one of my greatest battles. Nothing to do with the caricatural humor I use to belittle Fe. It's deeper than that. Alas, walls of text and the promise of being misunderstood prevent me from sharing too much.

    I will say though McFate, that I think you need to play closer attention. Typ0c works in terms of fashion - "the current hot topic" and all that. But you can apply the very same rationale (and I've had, and others have) to Ne/Ni Te/Ti Se/Si.


    Xi will care about congruence. Xe is more utilitarian, it's more context dependent and more of a tool one uses. Xi is more of a burden one is stuck with.

  10. #50
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    First of all, thanks to the Fi types for your comments and explanations. Truth be told, this isn’t something that hits home with me. I wouldn’t have started this thread if it did, because I’m rubbish at defending a position for which I’m in the throes of fighting off hurt feelings. I have Fe aux (theoretically), but I don’t feel personally feel threatened by the prospect of Fe being perceived as ‘fake’. At all. I wish I had more tolerance for superficial behavior. It’s just that I know a couple of really awesome Fe doms who’d get- as Trinity put- butthurt if they were members of this forum and I can imagine how much it bothers the Fe dom members here. I guess my point here is, I’m trying to pay attention to my tone, I’m not trying to sound… antagonistic. Cuz I’m not taking this stuff personally. I just want to understand the Fe bashing because I can see it being hurtful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Subjectively on Fi -I feel an exceptional strong need to be honest-even if painful to another. I feel an exceptional aversion to lies or emotional manipulation. The thought of using another person's emotions to make them alter their course of action makes me feel ill. To plan such a thing-it makes me feel disgusted with myself. Fi is REAL. It is honest, open, genunie, even if that means displays of emo-puking insanity.


    Thus to effectively teach them a god damned thing, you have to be REAL. Any sense that you are not REAL, or are planning and plotting...and they assume Te and respond assertively, defensivly, and even aggressively.

    Thus to truly impact their judgment on an issue, you must be REAL. Whatever issue it is you feel strongly on....it has to REAL...and it has to force them to hurt just a little via their own internal Fi mirror, small though it may be.

    Subjectively on Fe-it feels really weird to me...it feels controlling


    Objectively on Fe
    -It is just as effective a system of social interaction as the above mentioned Fi-Te paradigm. It uses control of others based upon an Fe mechanism of emotional influence consciously rather than subconsciously...It isnt bad or good....just effective at maintaining a social balance, a mechanisms for maintaining social equilibrium. There is nothing Wrong with Fe or Fi...they are just meant to be used in different arenas on different audiences...
    Yeah, Orobas, it’s just- again- there’s a tie between Fi types needing “genuine” interaction and Fe types not needing it. Ti makes for a pretty good bullshit-o-meter I think. I don’t have much stomach for anyone imposing anything on me that isn’t REAL either. And the Fe doms I choose to know are just as loathe to manipulation and lies as I am.

    I’m not even trying to argue that there isn’t something ‘shallow’ about Fe- compared to Fi. I’m just arguing that emphasizing it as ‘shallow’ (this is not at you, Orobas, it’s in general) is very one dimensional and biased (it’s a perspective that downplays quantity because it discounts breadth), and that ‘shallow’ is by no means synonymous with ‘fake’ (‘fake’ downplays quality). It’s exactly the same thing as arguing that Fi is narrow/ego-centric (discounts depth) and narcissistic (downplays quality). And narcissists don’t empathize any more than ‘fake’ people do.

    That argument easily runs both ways. Fe types are more inclined to recognize this on their own, since it’s more important to them to be fair- which is the only reason why you won’t find just as many “Fe is naturally more empathetic because Fi is too inclined to narcissism” arguments as you will “Fi is more empathetic because Fe is about being fake” floating around.

    If Fe looks controlling, think about what Fi getting Te to do its bidding looks like. I think both extremes throw equal amounts of shit in the pool. And Fe types don’t like getting lumped together with the unfortunate ‘fake’ and manipulative extreme any more than (I presume) Fi types particularly want to be lumped together and branded as people who systematically club other people over the head with their own opinions like narcissistic cavemen until the other side concedes from sheer exhaustion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I also think you have to reconsider what you perceive to be belittling. I know it comes off as such, but I think it's just merely frustration and venting that happens at that point and *their attempt* to understand something that is clearly foreign to them and...well, getting it wrong
    These are pulled from a relatively recent thread on Fe/Fi (I’m not going to attach usernames because I’m not trying to point fingers, I just want to pull examples):

    I think Fe is more likely to think "what is expected of me to feel?"
    Fi would help out because of intense empathy...or would walk away because of having a bad day and feeling too overwhelmed to handle helping other people.

    Fe would help out because they would recognize helping as being the "right" thing to do, and I think they would be far more compelled to help, even if their mood wasn't good, whereas the Fi user might decide not to help based upon mood.
    And in the empathy/sympathy thread: people are arguing that Fi uses more empathy and Fe uses sympathy, while simultaneously commenting on how empathy is about genuinely caring and sympathy is about ‘pretending’ to care because you can’t directly relate. Really, no amount of adding “but Fi has it’s downsides too, and I love Fe types” is going to undo how Fe is flat out belittled as fake, even borderline sycophantic.

    Now, is it really a matter of Fi/Te not perceiving that^ as belittling? If just as many people jumped into those threads arguing that Fi is too narcissistic to care about other people as much as Fe- would that not seem like belittling? Because that might be one of the biggest reasons this is a problem in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    While Fi users may have their own ways of dealing with people and many Fi users have a great desire to please others, the need for authenticity and being true to yourself has a greater emphasis, therefore it's more discussed.
    So the connection is that the need to feel authentic naturally leads someone to actually being more true to him/herself (in the way of being more honest about feelings, hence “more genuine”)? But if it actually led to seeking the ‘truth’- instead of simply seeking something to enhance one’s sense of ‘authentic’ identity- how does this explain the consistent exaggeration of Fe’s weak spots? I’m just trying to point out that in some people- I think the Fe bashing is really more about trying to paint themselves in a better light (emotional Viagra).
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