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Thread: the Fi bias

  1. #31
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    However, I'll give an example of why an Fi user might say Fe was shallow - let's say certain Fi user will only spend a great deal of time and energy on someone they strongly prefer the company of, and they think the same is true of a certain Fe user, only to find that the Fe user gives that particular warmth to many people and the Fi person isn't as "special" to the Fe person as the Fe person is to the Fi person. So then the Fi user might accuse the Fe user of being "shallow" since they could give a level of warmth to several people that the Fi user can only give to people they strongly prefer.
    I totally understand why Fi users might feel like this -- but be assured that if I care about you there will be a lot of EXTRA (and genuine) warmth for you The other things that you might perceive as warmth towards other people are just a branch of the "People should be nice to each other" thing.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I totally understand why Fi users might feel like this -- but be assured that if I care about you there will be a lot of EXTRA (and genuine) warmth for you The other things that you might perceive as warmth towards other people are just a branch of the "People should be nice to each other" thing.
    Same here, if I don't like someone or am neutral about them, they get the factory level of warmth but if we really like you and know that you won't judge harshly, we can be insanely nonconformist, non-PC, raunchy, "who the Hell cares?". Haha, my ESFJ dad and I bond through telling off-color sex jokes. I just choose not to show my raunchy side for the most part, because I know it will be offensive to many people.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Fe gets called "fake" or "shallow" and Fi gets called "selfish" or "pretentious" - both of these are terrible, even hurtful, generalizations.

    However, I'll give an example of why an Fi user might say Fe was shallow - let's say certain Fi user will only spend a great deal of time and energy on someone they strongly prefer the company of, and they think the same is true of a certain Fe user, only to find that the Fe user gives that particular warmth to many people and the Fi person isn't as "special" to the Fe person as the Fe person is to the Fi person. So then the Fi user might accuse the Fe user of being "shallow" since they could give a level of warmth to several people that the Fi user can only give to people they strongly prefer.

    I'm just saying that might be ONE explanation, aside from the usual stereotypes about expected social behavior.

    On the back of my 1st grade report card in the teacher's comment section it reads:

    "Jag socializes too much with the other students, in class."

    My Mother wrote back:

    "Heaven forbid my son socializes with other students!"

    I must have been using "shallow" Fe, since I socialized with many.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    On the back of my 1st grade report card in the teacher's comment section it reads:

    "Jag socializes too much with the other students, in class."

    My Mother wrote back:

    "Heaven forbid my son socializes with other students!"

    I must have been using "shallow" Fe, since I socialized with many.
    I "flipped a card" everyday for that one. Flipping a card was a stupid disciplinary system. If you got 3 strikes, you would go to the resolution center. I would almost always get 2 strikes.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I "flipped a card" everyday for that one. Flipping a card was a stupid disciplinary system. If you got 3 strikes, you would go to the resolution center. I would almost always get 2 strikes.
    Christ, I even got in trouble for laughing! I didn't even DO anything.

  6. #36
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    I think the reason that it surfaces more with Fe and Fi is because Fi is described as being 'authentic', aka, in the MBTI descriptions as well. It tends to not be mentionned with other functions, including Fe, as it's not relevant to the nature of the beastie in the description. Fi however, has the innate need to be authentic. And, as mentionned before, it's not always a good thing, and can cause a lot of trouble.
    Yeah, but I want to point out there’s a distinct difference between needing to feel authentic oneself and having authentic feelings for other people. It’s entirely possible not to feel particularly compelled to feel authentic oneself AND have completely authentic feelings for other people. The two are not interdependent. So unless you’re trying to explain that Fi types systematically belittle Fe in attempt to feel more authentic (by disparaging the authenticity of others, rather than doing the work of finding ways to feel authentic by being authentic- which is just the way people sometimes go about it sometimes), then I’m not entirely sure what you’re point is in bringing this up.

    Or is there some other connection between needing to feel authentic oneself and having authentic feelings towards others that I'm not seeing?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    Same here, if I don't like someone or am neutral about them, they get the factory level of warmth but if we really like you and know that you won't judge harshly, we can be insanely nonconformist, non-PC, raunchy, "who the Hell cares?". Haha, my ESFJ dad and I bond through telling off-color sex jokes. I just choose not to show my raunchy side for the most part, because I know it will be offensive to many people.
    Yeah, that is my experience of Fe...if they actually like me or feel close to me I get their "real" side. When I gave that example I wasn't trying to say that's how I feel personally, but as someone with Fi I could imagine someone else with Fi feeling that way, and I think I may have experienced that feeling myself when I was very young, like in my teens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    On the back of my 1st grade report card in the teacher's comment section it reads:

    "Jag socializes too much with the other students, in class."

    My Mother wrote back:

    "Heaven forbid my son socializes with other students!"

    I must have been using "shallow" Fe, since I socialized with many.
    Nah, ENFPs socialize with many too. :rolli: I used to always get in trouble in school for talking or passing notes.

    It's not about socializing. It's about Fe's ability to make you feel totally nurtured, like you are the only person in the world, and Fi is susceptible to wanting to feel "special."

  9. #39
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m just curious what other people think the root of this Fi bias is. A lot of people are equating Fi with authenticity and genuine caring, and feel compelled to view Fe as ‘shallow’ instead of ‘having breadth’.

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen any comments about how Ne, Se or Te are more ‘shallow’ or inauthentic than Ni, Si or Ti- nor are there comments from Ni, Si, or Ti types going on and on about how they intuit/sense/think so much more deeply than Ne, Se or Te types (respectively, sticking to same N, S or T comparisons)- so why is this so common with Fe/Fi?

    It’s a rather self-serving and one dimensional view. Proteanmix just commented in another thread that it’s like emotional Viagra- the way Fi types feel this need to exalt Fi as being more “genuine”- and I have to admit, that’s exactly how it looks to me as well.

    There have been somewhat similar arguments (equally as self-serving and one-dimensional) between N and S, but I’m wondering why F is the only function with so much contention between its own E/I attitude.

    (I know this discussion is *kinda* going on in another thread, but I didn't want to further derail that thread.)

    edit: also, I was hoping to steer clear of the empathy/sympathy debate, and focus on the E/I differences of deep/shallow vs. depth/breadth. I mean, no one ever refers to Ne as being shallow, I don't think there's any argument about it's 'breadth' being significant- so why is it so different for F?
    I warn you-I havent read this thread-just the OP. Also I am a bit drunk as I am sad as i think I may have to kill my dog.

    Fi is likely the point of an Fi users ego. It defines us internally.

    Fe is a step removed from an Fe users ego. For ENTPs, Ti is likely the ego...I dont really know about the rest of the Fe crowd.

    Subjectively on Fi -I feel an exceptional strong need to be honest-even if painful to another. I feel an exceptional aversion to lies or emotional manipulation. The thought of using another person's emotions to make them alter their course of action makes me feel ill. To plan such a thing-it makes me feel disgusted with myself. Fi is REAL. It is honest, open, genunie, even if that means displays of emo-puking insanity.

    Objectively on Fi-Fi subconsciously manipulates others via emotional reactivity in ENFPs. Who is the intended audience and what is the objective?

    The audience is Te doms and Auxs. The (totally unplanned, intended, totally reactive) goal of Fi authenticity seems to be to interact with Te users.

    Who plans every single thing they do in objective terms? Te doms and auxs
    Who often hurts others due to their own oblivious desire to push forward Te objectives? Te doms and auxs
    Who most resents having their own emotions and guilt used against them? Te auxs and doms. (please refer to ayn rand)

    Thus to effectively teach them a god damned thing, you have to be REAL. Any sense that you are not REAL, or are planning and plotting...and they assume Te and respond assertively, defensivly, and even aggressively.

    Thus to truly impact their judgment on an issue, you must be REAL. Whatever issue it is you feel strongly on....it has to REAL...and it has to force them to hurt just a little via their own internal Fi mirror, small though it may be.

    You effectively teach them how to not hurt others with Te, by showing them how they have hurt you. They dont typically mean to hurt others...they just seek effeciency which can sometimes hurt others.

    Thus this exceptionally strong desire for Fi to be highly authentic may derive from an evolutionary perogative for Fi-Te social interactions to rest upon Te being used as the controlling factor, while Fi is an effective tool for empathic communications.

    Subjectively on Fe-it feels really weird to me...it feels controlling


    Objectively on Fe
    -It is just as effective a system of social interaction as the above mentioned Fi-Te paradigm. It uses control of others based upon an Fe mechanism of emotional influence consciously rather than subconsciously...It isnt bad or good....just effective at maintaining a social balance, a mechanisms for maintaining social equilibrium. There is nothing Wrong with Fe or Fi...they are just meant to be used in different arenas on different audiences...


    So what's left?


    Why are these two audiences mixed? Each seems totally sufficient and rational if left alone....but why are the two stuck together? I really dont understand this at all....why would evolution find an advantage in mixing the two???

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Christ, I even got in trouble for laughing! I didn't even DO anything.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_ My son is the person who comes home saying..."I got in trouble today because someone else laughed, it doesnt make any sense, I didnt laugh" he did something that they laughed at.
    Im out, its been fun

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