• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Fe and Beauty

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I agree with this, Jung is talking about the Fe tendency to weigh how it will affect others in their environment when deciding on a course of action.

What is more beautiful, to watch someone crash or to watch someone glow with happiness?
 

wolfy

awsm
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,251
What is more beautiful, to watch someone crash or to watch someone glow with happiness?

Depends on what you want to see. For me, glow. Is there an issue with playing the environment to cause an effect with these Fe discussions?
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Depends on what you want to see. For me, glow. Is there an issue with playing the environment to cause an effect with these Fe discussions?

I dont understand your question. The biggest issue I have with Fe is misuse of it to cause someone to crash for personal reasons as thats a selfish use of Fe to me. Its something I can and have got past when others do it to me, but its still not something I think highly of.
 

wolfy

awsm
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,251
I dont understand your question. The biggest issue I have with Fe is misuse of it to cause someone to crash for personal reasons as thats a selfish use of Fe to me. Its something I can and have got past when others do it to me, but its still not something I think highly of.

Sure, that isn't a good thing. I guess if you are able to play it one way it isn't hard to turn it on it's head. I have done that, in order to create a negative effect. I think everybody has done the opposite of what was expected to annoy people.

It seems more of a personal ethics thing to me.

The question was almost talking to myself. Actually, I was talking to myself and typed it out.
 

Poki

New member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
10,436
MBTI Type
STP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Sure, that isn't a good thing. I guess if you are able to play it one way it isn't hard to turn it on it's head. I have done that, in order to create a negative effect. I think everybody has done the opposite of what was expected to annoy people.

It seems more of a personal ethics thing to me.

The question was almost talking to myself. Actually, I was talking to myself and typed it out.

Yeah..."whats expected" is where it gets confusing because we are all different. The best way I have found to create Fe beauty is to see what Fi wants and provide that. Its a weird day when you can see the same glow in a male xNTPs eyes that you can see from a female xNFP.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
My sense of beauty is more conservative but by no means I am I blindly going by what society is telling me. This is ridiculous. Look at how Domino/ PinkPiranha expresses herself through her attire. Fe doms aren't just about social standards..... we have brains of our own, ya know? I use my Ni, Se, and Ti to level out the Fe (I have really strong Ni so it's always battling the Fe).
 

wolfy

awsm
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Messages
12,251
My sense of beauty is more conservative but by no means I am I blindly going by what society is telling me. This is ridiculous. Look at how Domino/ PinkPiranha expresses herself through her attire. Fe doms aren't just about social standards..... we have brains of our own, ya know? I use my Ni, Se, and Ti to level out the Fe (I have really strong Ni so it's always battling the Fe).

Isn't it more a tendency to weigh and include that as fact and information on decision making? It seems simplistic to believe that Fe would result in an individual becoming a slave to societies cultural norms and expectations. Knowing and being aware doesn't have to lead to doing. There is always the individual will.

Imagine how the other functions would colour Fe. Imagine if you were aware but chose another route. There seems to be advantages in using that function far beyond the limiting descriptions on this forum.

Edit: When I went back and reread this it looks like I reworded your post. Hopefully I added something.
 
G

Glycerine

Guest
Isn't it more a tendency to weigh and include that as fact and information on decision making? It seems simplistic to believe that Fe would result in an individual becoming a slave to societies cultural norms and expectations. Knowing and being aware doesn't have to lead to doing. There is always the individual will.

Imagine how the other functions would colour Fe. Imagine if you were aware but chose another route. There seems to be advantages in using that function far beyond the limiting descriptions on this forum.

Edit: When I went back and reread this it looks like I reworded your post. Hopefully I added something.
Thank you. You put it much more succinctly than I could. :)
 

Unkindloving

Lungs & Lips Locked
Joined
Dec 10, 2009
Messages
2,963
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Enneagram
4w5
Personally, I find beauty in obscure, uncommon places that are frequently up for debate.
I'm more prone to keeping my individual opinion intact. I may not declare something ugly forthright, but I'll commonly refuse to give it praise.

Fe more so drives me to sidestep, questioning what makes it aesthetically appealing to others. It bleeds into Ni. From there, they have the chance to sway me or, at least, allow me to better see it through their eyes.

This makes me wonder about Fe-tact and how it comes off as insincere. Say I maintain my opinion, but recognize and validate the opinions of others. Am I more likely to come off as indecisive and unreadable? I could see it easily getting misconstrued as not having a solid opinion of my own.
 

La de Longe

New member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
26
MBTI Type
infj
I like this discussion. I definitely think that there’s a difference between having a true eye for aesthetics and having an opinion about looks good. The latter anyone can have, the former I don’t really think everyone possesses, or at least that some have a greater aptitude for than others.

I’ve also known enough people of same type who have vastly different tastes/abilities to discern what looks good to think that an eye for design is related to anyone one function.

As for how I judge beauty, maybe this is just where my Fe shows, but I think I do want to able to say some things are attractive and other things just aren’t even if other people like them, and I think the criteria for this can be both subjective and maybe not-so-subjective. It makes me think of a friend of mine who typically dresses in way that doesn’t exactly flatter her figure. She thinks she’s hot, but I know a lot of people look at her and think “that skirt’s too short,” “she should not be showing that much cleavage,” etc, etc. I suppose we could say that people are judging her based on cultural norms of what is appropriate, but to some extent she also doesn’t always seem to have a sense of what looks good on her. I’m not exactly sure where to draw the line here.


Anyways, it has been difficult. My girlfriend was astonished when she met me and came to my appartment for the first time. I had left it unpainted and white and felt quite comfortable. She (INFP) finds it extremely ugly and unbecoming to not appropriate space with personal taste.

I can be like that, and maybe as you mentioned I’d attribute it more to inferior Se more than anything. A few months back I met an INFJ textile designer who’s apartment was nearly empty. You’d think that as an artist she would have an appreciation for aesthetics (and she did), but it seems like a lot of dominant intuitives I know don’t get much satisfaction out of accumulating lots of things. I always think about ways I could decorate my room, but really I don’t think my external environment affects me enough to motivate me to do anything about it.

And about Fe and agreeability there are two extremes. There seem to be Fe-users who are reluctant to express to any negative opinion about anything out of fear of hurting someone’s feelings, and then there are the ones who are hyper-critical and quick to express exactly how they feel about something regardless of who might be offended.
 

La de Longe

New member
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
26
MBTI Type
infj
Something else this thread made me think of...

Do people think there's a difference between personal taste and good taste? Because I actually do. This may be where Fi vs Fe plays a role in judging beauty.
 

lucibelle

New member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
137
MBTI Type
I__P
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sp
Something else this thread made me think of...

Do people think there's a difference between personal taste and good taste? Because I actually do. This may be where Fi vs Fe plays a role in judging beauty.

Looking at someone else's taste, say, in clothing or art, you judge it according to your own personal taste. If it doesn't comply with it, it's bad taste. If it does, it's good taste. That's how I define the difference anyhow. Sorry if what I just said doesn't make any sense, I am awful at expressing myself. :doh:
 
Last edited:

Quinlan

Intriguing....
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
3,004
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
9w1
It's funny how people take Fe and Fe doms to be the same thing. Fe doms aren't bundles of pure Fe, they have Fi aswell and all the other functions (and everything else) tempering their behaviour.

I suppose discussing functions in isolation is a very abstract thing, they're never used in isolation in real life.

That's why it doesn't bother me when people say Fi is selfish etc. it probably is selfish in isolation but no one but the unhealthiest and one dimensional people use it on it's own.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Fe motivates the individual to adapt to the objective situation. This manifests itself in the form of accepting beauty (in this situation) because it is conventional under all circumstances. Do not confuse "beauty" as the moral of this story, since beauty is chiefly concerned with aesthetics, not the convention of external feelings.

Fi motivates the individual to adapt the objective situation to the individual, depending on whether the situation is acceptable by the criteria of the individual. Because if this, it is often referred to as an "idealistic" function. It is chiefly concerned with realizing the inner-ideal in terms of one's own appreciation of feeling abstraction.
 

Lady_X

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
18,235
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
784
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This thread title should be changed to Fe and agreeability. What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. The fact that he chose to use art to illustrate the point, doesn't mean those with a strong preference for Fe don't know what beauty is. That is not what is going on here.

What if someone with a strong preference for Fe is out to dinner and rather than tell the waiter the food really stinks, they tell them their dinner is "fine." Well, surely you aren't going to suggest the person doesn't know what good food is now, are you? That would be silly.

The underlying issue is the same whether we use art or food to illustrate the point - a strong Fe preference would rather be agreeable, than disagreeable, in order to avoid conflict.

ha...makes perfect sense...very important point to make yeah...my infj mother is an artist and has a very defined and elegant aesthetic...she certainly is very influenced by beauty...it colors her whole world and is very much a part of her.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
The underlying issue is the same whether we use art or food to illustrate the point - a strong Fe preference would rather be agreeable, than disagreeable, in order to avoid conflict.

I'm not trying to spark controversy here, Jag, but I think that Fi can manifest itself for a person to be conflict avoidant or agreeable as well.

I think that, if someone's opinion is shaped by Fe, this motivates them to consider the feelings of others to be socially conventional. This, by all means, does not mean that it is not their real opinion. It's just that their opinion is shaped moreso by external feelings than internal feelings.

One's internal feelings may dictate that they agree that the food is nice, even though their own standards determine that it is not. For instance, maybe the individual does not want to be slapped by the cook because this would not be acceptable by internal criteria.
 

Thalassa

Permabanned
Joined
May 3, 2009
Messages
25,183
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx
I'm not trying to spark controversy here, Jag, but I think that Fi can manifest itself for a person to be conflict avoidant or agreeable as well.

I think that, if someone's opinion is shaped by Fe, this motivates them to consider the feelings of others to be socially conventional. This, by all means, does not mean that it is not their real opinion. It's just that their opinion is shaped moreso by external feelings than internal feelings.

One's internal feelings may dictate that they agree that the food is nice, even though their own standards determine that it is not. For instance, maybe the individual does not want to be slapped by the cook because this would not be acceptable by internal criteria.

Yep. Sometimes I think about other people's feelings with my Fi. I think it's overly simplistic to say that's always Fe. Like I remember even as a child of seven or eight years old intuitively understanding that when my grandfather gave me a gift, if I said I didn't like it, it would make him feel bad...even if I really didn't like it. And my Fi told me that I didn't want to make grandpa feel bad, because I loved him, and somehow understood even at that age that acts of service and gift giving were how he showed love (even though I obviously didn't have the vocabulary to articulate such thoughts at that point in my life)...and saying that I didn't like the doll or the dress would be like emotionally slapping him in the face.

So it's not always my own face my Fi is concerned about. Just sayin'...
 

21%

You have a choice!
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
3,224
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
It seems we all know that:

All people appreciate beauty, regardless whether they have Fe or Fi (or Te or Ti).
All people will try not to hurt other people's feelings, regardless of whether they have Fe or Fi (or Te or Ti).

So perhaps this thread isn't really about Fe and Fi, but about people stating/not stating their opinions so as to not hurt other people's feelings... :huh:
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
I'm not trying to spark controversy here, Jag, but I think that Fi can manifest itself for a person to be conflict avoidant or agreeable as well.

I never said Fi couldn't. But this thread is about Fe. Controversy would be telling me I had the I.Q. of a North American, male, prostitute. :D

I think that, if someone's opinion is shaped by Fe, this motivates them to consider the feelings of others to be socially conventional. This, by all means, does not mean that it is not their real opinion. It's just that their opinion is shaped moreso by external feelings than internal feelings.

One's internal feelings may dictate that they agree that the food is nice, even though their own standards determine that it is not. For instance, maybe the individual does not want to be slapped by the cook because this would not be acceptable by internal criteria.

First of all I was addressing what Jung wrote. Go back to the OP. This is what I said about Jung's comments:

"What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. "

I stand by my interpretation of what Jung was trying to convey.
It seems you glossed over my words, "taken to an extreme," and you now somehow think I suggested Fe won't ever give its real opinion.
That is not the case.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
Active Ingredient

I never said Fi couldn't. But this thread is about Fe. Controversy would be telling me I had the I.Q. of a North American, male, prostitute. :D



First of all I was addressing what Jung wrote. Go back to the OP. This is what I said about Jung's comments:

"What Jung is really pointing out is that Fe taken to an extreme would rather forego its real opinion, simply to keep the peace. "

I stand by my interpretation of what Jung was trying to convey.
It seems you glossed over my words, "taken to an extreme," and you now somehow think I suggested Fe won't ever give its real opinion.
That is not the case.

But what happens if the shampoo is not fresh?
 
Top