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  1. #31

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    Victor:

    You are committing the fallacy of confusing the origins (and you are wrong on that too) of something with its truthfulness.

    This is a variety of ad hominen attack. Discredit the person and subsequently cast a shadow over everything they do.

    The Nazi's and all bad men use a variety of tools to perpetuate their power.

    If it is shown that somatotype is an accurate predictor of temperament that fact would stand whether it was used as a tool to manipulate people.

    As of now you could say the same thing about personality tests. They are routinely used to hire,fire, promote, and put people on the fast track. Same with IQ tests. Is there something that IQ tests measure? And are those measurements used by certain people to make decisions about peoples future income and happiness. Yes. Indeed.

    So your knee-jerk reaction pretty much helps me size up the current state of YOUR ability to carry out an objective investigation of this subject and probably most subjects.
    “Sheldon considers human beings as they really are - psycho-physical wholes.”

    “the first serious advance of the science of man since Aristotle”

    “For the first time the old insights and intuitions about the different kinds of human beings have been clarified and put on a firmly objective and measurable basis.”
    ___“Aldous Huxley/ A Biography” Sybille Bedford, 1974

  2. #32

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    Red Herring:

    I have real problems with Jung. MBTI is my least favorite test mainly because it is grounded in Jung. Jung describes the functions but doesn't name them very well and because of his alchemical tendencies to arrange things into quaternities of opposites has devised a system that is really incoherent.

    If Sensing, Thinking, Feeling, Intuiting are all functions shared by everyone then why can't you have 24 combinations of these factors. But, Jung doesn't allow a person to be both Sensing and Intuitive. Jung doesn't allow a person to be both thinking and feeling. Why? Well that's just the way he said it has to be.

    I bring up Jung, not because he is some holy guru, but because some THINK he is, it may persuade them to consider somatotype BECAUSE he thought it was important. In truth, Jung gave brief lip service to the concept of constitutional types but he was so involved with the psyche he had no time to consider the soma.
    “Sheldon considers human beings as they really are - psycho-physical wholes.”

    “the first serious advance of the science of man since Aristotle”

    “For the first time the old insights and intuitions about the different kinds of human beings have been clarified and put on a firmly objective and measurable basis.”
    ___“Aldous Huxley/ A Biography” Sybille Bedford, 1974

  3. #33
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    I'd be a either a 343, Which puts me right on the boundary of ENFJ and ENTJ... Or I'd be a 353 (putting me near ESFP/ESTP). I think its a reasonable theory. Being more Meso/Ecto might have driven a more ENTJ/ESTP side of me. ...who knows...

  4. #34
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    I have no idea what I am on that damn chart.
    Mesomorph, though. 250 lbs, 178 cm.
    And no, I do not look like Manuel Uribe, i'm muscular XD

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  5. #35
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    i never know which body-type i'm supposed to fit into.
    most of my bones are long (my feet and hands are small though), i look very young for my age (i'm 20 and most people that don't know me think i'm 13 or something like that), i am considered tall by most people (though i'd say it's regular height in europe, 172 cm female) which are the characteristics of ectomorphs. but i do gain muscle easily (mesomorph), i look rather fleshy than rubbery like some skinny people with muscle do. my skeleton is rather delicate and small (ectomorph) but my body is hourglass shaped (female characteristic for mesomorph). on the other hand my thighs are significantly bigger than my very slim calves which is often associated with endomorph.

    and i am an infp sooo i should be an endomorph? so confusing...

  6. #36
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile A Nerve

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychdigg View Post
    Victor:
    So your knee-jerk reaction pretty much helps me size up the current state of YOUR ability to carry out an objective investigation of this subject and probably most subjects.
    I understand I have touched a nerve.

    And indeed how could I possibly have the nerve myself to question the personality of Jung?

    And you're right, it does take nerve to question MBTI on an MBTI site.

    But consider how well they take it. They are not nervous people. They take my critique of MBTI in their stride.

    Of course they represent people from all over the world, and have resisted the temptation to be parochial.

    Unfortunately Jung himself would have regarded them as Cosmopolitans. And just as Jung abused his female patients, Cosmopolitans came to an even worse end.

    I can see I get on your nerves. Who knows, perhaps we Cosmopolitans make you nervous.

    So I would be grateful if you would put me on Ignore.

    On the other hand, you could read every word I write and let me know immediately I get on your nerves.

  7. #37
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I'm stockyish with a bit of fat and a bit of muscle what type does that make me?
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  8. #38
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I'm stockyish with a bit of fat and a bit of muscle what type does that make me?
    Mesomorph.


    In reality, everyone is some percentage of the three types. I'm mostly an ecto with touches of meso.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Vamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    more information for those who are curious:
    The Somatotypes

    the proposed correlations are interesting, psychdigg, and welcome.

    i can't say i've ever been a big subscriber to somatotype theory though .__.'' have there been studies done to affirm these correlations?
    Outside of psychology and in the realm of health/fitness/kinetics/stuff to do with the body and making it run smoothly there have been. Whole tenants of Ayurvedic medicine are based on body type/personality type relations.
    George Bernard Shaw in cartoon form.

  10. #40
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psychdigg View Post
    Skylights:

    Sheldon's theory about somatotype and personality has a strong tie in with Jung. Sheldon worked at the Jung institute in Switzerland for a while.

    In Jung's Collected Works vol 6 page 524 Jung says: "so intimate is the intermingling of body and psychic traits that not only can we draw far-reaching inferences as to the constitution of the psyche from the constitution of the body, but we can also infer from psychic peculiarities the corresponding bodily characteristics.

    At this point in time I have taken this theory further than anyone alive. Using actual measurements of a person's body (height, weight patterns, Trunk Index) it is possible to determine quite accurately the particular mix of endo, meso and ecto.

    What I have done differently is add a factor that expresses the degree of balance between those three dimensions. A mesomorph that is a 4,5,4 (Tiger Woods) is a lot different from a mesomorph that is a 2.5,5,4.5 (Brad Pitt) Both are muscular but Brad Pitt is a little more independent and selective than a Tiger Woods.

    Types don't have rigid boundaries defining them. They are like clouds of probability. This is evident in the endless discussions about "am I a P or J" , "I tested first as an T and then later as an F" This is really a problem with the balanced somatotypes that lie at the center of the chart. The close you are to the balance point of the center the more likely you will be confused about your type. That also may explain why the majority of people who are endlessly fascinated with type are midrange types. Those who are more extreme in body-type are less concerned about their identity because it doesn't shift.

    Balance doesn't mean stability. Think of a teeter-totter or balance scale. If one side is dominant it tips in one direction and stays there. If the weights are equal the slightest touch destabilizes the system and keeps going back and forth. People in the middle have so many possibilities that they have trouble determining exactly who they are.
    thanks

    though, i still wonder if anyone has done scientific correlative studies?

    anyway, mine is actually pretty accurate. i'm average-limbed and muscular with a little more fat around my hips/butt than everywhere else.

    If Sensing, Thinking, Feeling, Intuiting are all functions shared by everyone then why can't you have 24 combinations of these factors. But, Jung doesn't allow a person to be both Sensing and Intuitive. Jung doesn't allow a person to be both thinking and feeling. Why? Well that's just the way he said it has to be.
    everyone is both though, we just tend to use either one or the other more, based on the model. i don't know if jung's theory is necessarily right, but i find it useful, because at least it's a starting point for understanding people's minds, and it's based off of their minds. all measurements are technically arbitrary, anyway.

    i agree with you in believing that body and mind are unquestionably related, but i'm not quite comfortable with using body shape as a basis for understanding people's minds. there's so much that can go on in between.

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