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  1. #11
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    The green grin makes me a little worried about a cat trap, but here goes a shot.

    Pragmatism
    Ti-Se

    Practicality
    Si-Te

    Patience
    Si-Fe

    => S?
    There is no trap.
    Interesting point, Ti-Se/Si-Te dichotomy. A very brave match.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Based on what you said...

    Pragmatism is SF (Si Fe/Fi?)
    Practicality is ST (Te Si or Ti Se)
    Patience? I don't believe it's covered by MBTI at all. Part of human nature yes... but not found by MBTI... more like conscientiousness of the Big 5.
    Practicality is ST. A good observation.
    Te Si or Ti Se? That is the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm expecting some trains on this journey and possibly even fence posts and panels What's your aim Mr WP Wildcat?

    First analysis answers (well probably tenth analysis but it's the first one I'm giving)
    1. Pragmatism - IJ
    2. Practicality - EJ
    3. Patience - IP
    Patience is attributed to the stoic personality.
    IP?

    Pragmatism and practicality a dichotomy of E?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Pragmatism - ST

    Practicality - STJ

    ...

    Aren't pragmatic and practical the same thing?

    Patience - INFP (?)
    If they were the same thing you would be the winner.

    T correlates with patience.
    N is neutral.

    IP?

    Is a unit a bond?
    A correlation is a bond. Not a causal thing.

    Is a bond random?
    No.

    A unit is one.
    A bond is many.

    A cause is a unison.
    What is a bond?
    Last edited by proteanmix; 01-05-2008 at 09:31 AM. Reason: merged posts

  2. #12
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    There is no trap.
    Interesting point, Ti-Se/Si-Te dichotomy. A very brave match.
    Spent a while trying to work that one out, and not certain still. I see nightning has came to a different conclusion *chuckles*.

    Perhaps you can spot the flaws in my logic:

    I took pragmatism as the mindset, as you did. It means the person has to have an internal frame of reference dominant. This could be a Ti or Si, or Fi, Ni.

    Eliminated Fi given the values-based framework, which could run counter to seeing reality as it is, eliminated Ni as focus is on synthesis vs order.

    Ti and Si both give the clearer internal structure. But one process alone cannot decide. Means auxilliary function needed. It is the interaction between dominant and auxilliary that results in the difference between the practical and pragmatic. i.e. Dichotomy can exist - A pragmatic person may not be practical. A practical person, however, would have a sense of pragmatism, but be able to know when to use the tool.

    Practical, as you observed, is action focused, post filtering through mindset. It is a derivative => the person cannot be practical unless he has a frame of reference. (sense of pragmatism??)

    Se, Te, Fe, Ne.

    To pair with Ti, I can have Se, Ne. Ti-Ne would lack action. Not practical. Pragmatic? No. See world as it can be, through their prism.

    Ti-Se. Framework. Then take in the world as it is. May or may not act (ergo be practical). Se not likely to impact framework in terms of changing views, being a perceiving vs judging function, unless a tremendous shift occurs. Reality is frameworked to a dead past, in a sense. Ergo pragmatism. Dominant inherited structure, of which later inputs are filtered to support/reframe.

    For Si, I can have Te, Fe. Si-Fe. Action on emotions. No. Si-Te? Framework = old experiences. But Te gives potential to change/adapt the tool as required if new inputs come in, being a judging function. => practical. Past perceptions guiding actions.

    *Cze, patience =/= indecision?

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Is a unit a bond?
    A correlation is a bond. Not a causal thing.

    Is a bond random?
    No.

    A unit is one.
    A bond is many.

    A cause is a unison.
    What is a bond?
    A bond is the relation between two or more letters. And it is the feedback loop that is not just cause, but cause and effect. The combination is what gives the characteristics you're looking for. i.e. the answer will not be one letter alone?

  4. #14
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    Spent a while trying to work that one out, and not certain still. I see nightning has came to a different conclusion *chuckles*.

    Perhaps you can spot the flaws in my logic:

    I took pragmatism as the mindset, as you did. It means the person has to have an internal frame of reference dominant. This could be a Ti or Si, or Fi, Ni.

    Eliminated Fi given the values-based framework, which could run counter to seeing reality as it is, eliminated Ni as focus is on synthesis vs order.

    Ti and Si both give the clearer internal structure. But one process alone cannot decide. Means auxilliary function needed. It is the interaction between dominant and auxilliary that results in the difference between the practical and pragmatic. i.e. Dichotomy can exist - A pragmatic person may not be practical. A practical person, however, would have a sense of pragmatism, but be able to know when to use the tool.

    Practical, as you observed, is action focused, post filtering through mindset. It is a derivative => the person cannot be practical unless he has a frame of reference. (sense of pragmatism??)

    Se, Te, Fe, Ne.

    To pair with Ti, I can have Se, Ne. Ti-Ne would lack action. Not practical. Pragmatic? No. See world as it can be, through their prism.

    Ti-Se. Framework. Then take in the world as it is. May or may not act (ergo be practical). Se not likely to impact framework in terms of changing views, being a perceiving vs judging function, unless a tremendous shift occurs. Reality is frameworked to a dead past, in a sense. Ergo pragmatism. Dominant inherited structure, of which later inputs are filtered to support/reframe.

    For Si, I can have Te, Fe. Si-Fe. Action on emotions. No. Si-Te? Framework = old experiences. But Te gives potential to change/adapt the tool as required if new inputs come in, being a judging function. => practical. Past perceptions guiding actions.

    *Cze, patience =/= indecision?
    Good work. Sound logic. Clever thinking.

    A J/P shift. I Agree.

    I entertained a thought the shift could be the other way around.
    But of course I may be wrong. I am not sure about that though.

  5. #15
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Patience is attributed to the stoic personality.
    IP?
    Stoic? Surely not. Surely that is NT. An INFP can hardly be accused of being indifferent to pain/ pleasure.

    Anyhow, basically P seems more patient as the parameters are more cushioned and less abrasive where as with J types the parameters can be quite harsh and unyielding.

    I do recognise that in certain situations an EP may well be more patient than an IP and that a J, who's long term goals include patience, may well be the most patient of all but I feel that IP is generally the most patient across all circumstances as a whole.

    INTP, may be impatient with those who refuse to knuckle under logic or thinking but unless provoked will put up with a lot and wait things out.
    INFP, again patient unless you anger them and engage their hidden sergeant major.
    ISTP, never met one but apparently they are laid back and affable.
    ISFP, also never met one but via extrapolation between INFP and ESFP they sound like fun if possibly nervous people.

    [If I type once more that I've never 'emergency medical treatment'd a type I'm going to need emt!! Damn typos!!!]
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Pragmatism and practicality a dichotomy of E?
    An IJ is practical of thought and principle, an EJ practical in action. How many times have you heard an IJ plan which is perfect in every conceivable criteria except that it will not work in the real world due to things they excluded as irrelevant, and EJs with the ever so practical outlook ignoring the underlying practicalities
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  6. #16
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Stoic? Surely not. Surely that is NT. An INFP can hardly be accused of being indifferent to pain/ pleasure.

    Anyhow, basically P seems more patient as the parameters are more cushioned and less abrasive where as with J types the parameters can be quite harsh and unyielding.

    I do recognise that in certain situations an EP may well be more patient than an IP and that a J, who's long term goals include patience, may well be the most patient of all but I feel that IP is generally the most patient across all circumstances as a whole.

    INTP, may be impatient with those who refuse to knuckle under logic or thinking but unless provoked will put up with a lot and wait things out.
    INFP, again patient unless you anger them and engage their hidden sergeant major.
    ISTP, never met one but apparently they are laid back and affable.
    ISFP, also never met one but via extrapolation between INFP and ESFP they sound like fun if possibly nervous people.

    [If I type once more that I've never 'emergency medical treatment'd a type I'm going to need emt!! Damn typos!!!]

    An IJ is practical of thought and principle, an EJ practical in action. How many times have you heard an IJ plan which is perfect in every conceivable criteria except that it will not work in the real world due to things they excluded as irrelevant, and EJs with the ever so practical outlook ignoring the underlying practicalities
    What is the dichotomy of E?
    J and P.

    I > E a dichotomy?

    Did you read the post number 12?

    I know the thing is difficult for us Ns to grasp.
    Not a cosa nostra.

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    What is the dichotomy of E?
    J and P.
    Only in reference to one particular facet. No blinkers old boy.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I > E a dichotomy?
    I is not greater than E, where do you get that from?
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Did you read the post number 12?
    Yup. However if I acknowledged that aelan had some good thoughts she may experience a painful tearing and shattering of her world view and as such I've just ignored it
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    I know the thing is difficult for us Ns to grasp.
    What I think is most difficult to us NTs to grasp is action without thought. It does happen. We just don't understand how.
    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Not a cosa nostra.
    One day I will extract explanations for these obtuse references. One day!!!

    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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