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  1. #11
    Member CocoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    It's more of that I get frustrated seeing "kind actions " done just because it should be done or you feel it's the right thing to do. To me, that's basing my actions with other people on moral standards that will not be genuine and are asked of me, rather than choosing to do something on my own.

    As I explained to someone last night, my social interactions are more of getting a feel for the interaction with the other person. How is the other person acting? How do they seem to be interpreting me? Do I need to adjust myself? I let my feelings and experience guide the interaction, and say what I want to or make whatever social gestures I need to as I see necessary. I treat each interaction uniquely. That's why I reject the social conduct of Fe, because it imposes standards on me that go against my personal social conduct.
    It's kind of hard to explain... But, i will do my best. You see, us ENFJ's when we do something kind or help someone or anything of that nature... you are very correct we do do it because it is most likely the right thing to do... BUT, the catch is that, "the right thing to do" is usually how we really feel in the first place. Being an ENFJ is very hard because we are very extraverted and connected with the outside world, so much so that it overpowers our inside (intraverted)... So, when we do something kind or make something right... We usually feel really strongly about it... otherwise we wouldn't be doing it in the first place. And, us not doing the right thing or helping would make us feel guilty... You see, it all goes back to Feelings... it is very confusing and draining!!! I'm tired from just talking about it... LoL. ; )

    Quote Originally Posted by unkindloving;
    I have an ISTJ arch nemesis and am glad that you posted this thread. He absolutely couldn't understand or accept how i function as a person and made assumptions about everything. He refused to be swayed by actually discussing it with me and listening to what i had to say.
    It was completely unwarranted, actually. My entire approach toward him was caring, respectful, and mature. For some reason, this bothered the holy hell out of him and he had some very strong negative opinions toward me / took to belittling me over various things.

    I've talked with ISTJs on the forum and there's not a lot of clashing in the interactions. I would say it's because they have a better understanding of what an ENFJ is in actuality and because i have gained a bit more of an understanding about them. I doubt we'd form any deep-rooted connections with one another or more than an 'i see how you are', but there is the ability to be civil.
    That's HILARIOUS because i have an ISTJ male in my life that is kind of the same way... But, instead of being angry with me he shows agitation (sometimes)... You see he once liked me a great deal.. and i believe he still does. But, i think he is an awe of my mind-frame.. and how i approach things and am so upbeat and positive. We clash a great deal because i am always trying to see the good in something or someone and he is always telling me that i am not realistic. When we get into debates... He will shutdown and not want to hear ANYTHING i have to say about the matter. It cracks me up because we are completely opposite..... Yet he still comes around and shows that ISTJ interest... He calls me a character just about everyday. I just don't get him though... ISTJ's really interest me... They really do : )
    "I Guess ii KiLLa-Kill Em.. I Guess ii AM the Villian.... I Park on the Curb, i'm on the Owner of the Buildin" NM

  2. #12
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unkindloving View Post

    How does she take the clarifications?
    Beating down the ENFJ idealism should be an ISTJ mantra lol. You destroy our land. You kill our children. You prostitute our women to your ranks. Will it ever stop?!

    Hmm. It's the ENFJ way to chameleon ourselves to relate to other people. I'd say a lot of us mean well, but a lot do get caught up in trying to help anyone and everyone. As we grow and become more self-aware, we're able to better sort through who we really care to help and will mold ourselves to see things from their perspective and make their interaction with us more comfortable.
    It can definitely seem way too cold and calculated, especially if we leave out our emotions toward it in an explanation. Think we get into some assessment mode after we establish something/someone is important enough.
    My sister takes the clarifications fine for the most part. I usually just explain to her why something won't work, why she's wrong and then tell her the possible negative outcome if she decides to become stubborn and refuse to adjust her outlook.

    I just looked at the workplace stuff like, you were considerate and helpful, but in the process, you were disrespectful and ignored their individuality.


    Quote Originally Posted by CocoB View Post
    It's kind of hard to explain... But, i will do my best. You see, us ENFJ's when we do something kind or help someone or anything of that nature... you are very correct we do do it because it is most likely the right thing to do... BUT, the catch is that, "the right thing to do" is usually how we really feel in the first place. Being an ENFJ is very hard because we are very extraverted and connected with the outside world, so much so that it overpowers our inside (intraverted)... So, when we do something kind or make something right... We usually feel really strongly about it... otherwise we wouldn't be doing it in the first place. And, us not doing the right thing or helping would make us feel guilty... You see, it all goes back to Feelings... it is very confusing and draining!!! I'm tired from just talking about it... LoL. ; )
    How strong your feelings are is relevant to a certain extent. My opposition with a lot of things done by ExFJs is that they don't stop to take into consideration how someone else might feel about something they want to do to be "kind." Sometimes people might not want you in their face or assuming things about them that are false.

    I react to my feelings all day. I'm a human being. 24 hours a day, I'm reacting to my feelings. It all comes down to feelings, you see. But my feelings tell me that although there are millions of people in the world I have to adjust myself to, I have something called free will and the ability to step back and think through my actions. Nothing is forcing me to adhere to social considerations. However, I came to realize that my mind is my most treasured asset, and I grew a respect for science, leadership and mathematics in the process.

    How I interact with other people is a technique perfected by myself for myself. If I get told to say or do a certain thing because it's the morally right thing to do, that person came to that same conclusion either by being taught it, or figuring it out on their own. But, people are different, and I may view one moral action differently than the next. The world is an unpredictable place, and due to people not all adhering to the same rules of social grace, I view it as a game of strategy. It's a minefield.

    Plus the fact that you're drained isn't from the feelings. That was just a lot of introversion possibly, and transferring something to the written word in an articulate manner is likely not a simple thing.


    That's HILARIOUS because i have an ISTJ male in my life that is kind of the same way... But, instead of being angry with me he shows agitation (sometimes)... You see he once liked me a great deal.. and i believe he still does. But, i think he is an awe of my mind-frame.. and how i approach things and am so upbeat and positive. We clash a great deal because i am always trying to see the good in something or someone and he is always telling me that i am not realistic. When we get into debates... He will shutdown and not want to hear ANYTHING i have to say about the matter. It cracks me up because we are completely opposite..... Yet he still comes around and shows that ISTJ interest... He calls me a character just about everyday. I just don't get him though... ISTJ's really interest me... They really do : )
    If I get into a debate with an ENFJ, the biggest problem I have with them is them not being articulate or precise enough. It's almost not worth getting into the debate because you have to wade through generalities and what almost seems like a lack of genuine interest in the conversation, a trait I've seen common in ENFJs.


  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    If I get into a debate with an ENFJ, the biggest problem I have with them is them not being articulate or precise enough. It's almost not worth getting into the debate because you have to wade through generalities and what almost seems like a lack of genuine interest in the conversation, a trait I've seen common in ENFJs.
    In my perspective, some people get WAY too bogged down in the details and if you understand the general idea, then it's "good enough".

    I really do respect your perspective but it seems like you view your sister as approaching things the "incorrect"/"inefficient" way when it might just be different. My brother and I have had this clash for a long time because I don't think we really appreciate each other's differences.

    The way I see it between my brother and I is that if he can't understand my reasoning for something, he automatically dismisses it as "wrong". However, in reality, I may just be approaching things from a different/more general angle. A lot of my hunches may not always be true in the short-term (present) but they tend to be accurate in the long-term (future). For example, my friend had a seemingly really nice friend but I just got a really weird feeling about her (and I thought I was being a jealous bitch for not liking her). Months later, she ends up screwing my friend out of $200. If I look back closely, her behavior didn't really add up over the long term. I have had this happen several times. The hunches usually don't just come out of nowhere. There's usually a rationale behind it but it might not be revealed for awhile. This is because XNFJs are usually looking for the common thread between everything. On the other hand, this means that XNFJs might force an nonexistent common thread of things and be completely off the rocker.

  4. #14
    Member CocoB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    My sister takes the clarifications fine for the most part. I usually just explain to her why something won't work, why she's wrong and then tell her the possible negative outcome if she decides to become stubborn and refuse to adjust her outlook.

    I just looked at the workplace stuff like, you were considerate and helpful, but in the process, you were disrespectful and ignored their individuality.




    How strong your feelings are is relevant to a certain extent. My opposition with a lot of things done by ExFJs is that they don't stop to take into consideration how someone else might feel about something they want to do to be "kind." Sometimes people might not want you in their face or assuming things about them that are false.

    I react to my feelings all day. I'm a human being. 24 hours a day, I'm reacting to my feelings. It all comes down to feelings, you see. But my feelings tell me that although there are millions of people in the world I have to adjust myself to, I have something called free will and the ability to step back and think through my actions. Nothing is forcing me to adhere to social considerations. However, I came to realize that my mind is my most treasured asset, and I grew a respect for science, leadership and mathematics in the process.

    How I interact with other people is a technique perfected by myself for myself. If I get told to say or do a certain thing because it's the morally right thing to do, that person came to that same conclusion either by being taught it, or figuring it out on their own. But, people are different, and I may view one moral action differently than the next. The world is an unpredictable place, and due to people not all adhering to the same rules of social grace, I view it as a game of strategy. It's a minefield.

    Plus the fact that you're drained isn't from the feelings. That was just a lot of introversion possibly, and transferring something to the written word in an articulate manner is likely not a simple thing.



    If I get into a debate with an ENFJ, the biggest problem I have with them is them not being articulate or precise enough. It's almost not worth getting into the debate because you have to wade through generalities and what almost seems like a lack of genuine interest in the conversation, a trait I've seen common in ENFJs.

    Hmmm... Raz, it is appearing as if ENFJ's annoy or frustrate you a great deal.. But then again, that is just what i "believe".... how typically ENFJ of me, huh?
    LoL... But, more so.. It also appears to me that you believe that ENFJ's interact with people on a "phony" or "fake" level, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Your interpretation of our behavior with other's is..... Kind of blurred. You see, the special thing about ENFJ's (such as myself ) is the ability to adapt to our enviornment as well as connect with people on THEIR level... It is not that your sister is saying "I have to be like this, to hang with this person"..Or "She needs to be approached like this".. What she is saying in ENFJ LANGUAGE is... "I've gotten to know her, i know her likes and dislikes... I feel that i have connected with her to the point where i am able to deal with her on her level"..... You see? The irony is that your sister probably had to get to know her co-worker as an individual (to her standards) in order to make the assesment that she made about that co-worker to you. Funny, right?

    What i will say is that based on my debates with my ISTJ male, he always has the same complaint that you just had. I will began to say something to him but then get frazzled or say " I don't know, you know?" lmao.... He always responds by saying "No, i don't know, you didn't say anything"... It's funny because i do it out of fear... You ISTJ's are very serious and sometimes it is hard for me to approach him because i cannot determine what the reaction may be because you guys are always so serious and mum.

    As far as being a human being with individuality, everyone is just that... human. ENFJ's are just "people people"... The way in which we interact with people is what makes us inspirational and motivational people. We interact with people based on each individual... kind of like a chamelon.. Making us very versatile and understanding. The world is a minefield and we understand that each person may not agree or believe what another does... But, that is the beauty of it. ENFJ's do have a "free will" we just chose to use it differently than other's... ENFJ's are really big on morals (and each ENFJ does not have the same moral's) and we do not set the moral's based upon society's rules or whatever... We base them on how we as individuals feel about one thing or another.
    GEESH!!
    You are really giving me great insight inside the ISTJ mind!! It is helping me a great deal... and most importantly, you are helping me to see how my behavior is percieved by others... VERY vital!!
    "I Guess ii KiLLa-Kill Em.. I Guess ii AM the Villian.... I Park on the Curb, i'm on the Owner of the Buildin" NM

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