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  1. #81
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If you want to say "negative aspects of personality", or "weaker aspects of personality that could bear improvement," and call that a "shadow," I really don't have any beef with that. If you want to say Ni-Te has a shadow of Ne-Ti or Se-Fi or Fi-Se, and therefore these are weak/dark/improvement-needing aspects of personality, I'll reply that you're putting the cart before the horse. In general, for an INTJ, all the aspects of personality that our outside of Ni-Te are "weak" or "shadows" or "bear improvement." Not just particular aspects in particular ways.
    So, you think there is no pattern? That is, you think that there is not commonality across individuals of a particular type when it comes to negative characteristics of their personality? You'd say it makes no difference - let's say for the INTJ type - between Se, Ne, Ti, etc. They are all non-preferences and can be treated equally?

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  2. #82
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    As Highlander says, it's not a "costume". There's no "faking". Rather, it's how Te deals with "Fe matters". Fe has a similar means of dealing with "Te matters." At the extreme, the Fe user will note that the Te user, while quite polite, occasionally makes really obvious mistakes w/r to dealing with people. The Te user will note that the while the Fe user appears to be very reasonable and competent, occasionally makes serious errors in logical/logistical matters.

    The key is that these are cognitive functions: the Te user looks at a people situation and analyzes it logistically, as objective factors that might be manipulated. In so doing, the Te user can trod over people's feelings, leaving them very upset, especially if their being upset doesn't get in the way of the Te user's objectives. The Fe user can make the reverse error, and manage a logistical situation as if it were a people problem, e.g., when told that the order cannot be filled because there aren't enough widgets, the Fe user, rather than figuring out how to get more widgets, will tell employees to not have such a negative attitude.

    In both cases, the functions are managing very similar areas of life, often with similar results. The approach of each function is from rather different perspectives.
    This seems very much right to me.

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  3. #83
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Introverted thinking. And not, say, the habits of being "objective" plus a monster dose of Fi+Ni? -- sucking the extroverted thinking back inside to become introverted? Is it still extroverted thinking, but overwhelmed by an introverted focus.. Or is it actually introverted thinking?
    Yeah, basically. There is really one Thinking fumction, and Te and Ti are just two sides of the coin. You're taking the function, and switcing the orientation.
    Or, consider the trickster, the seventh--for me, Fe. Using this process I can fool myself into thinking something is important when it isn't. Like, say, by imagining that for the sake of efficiency and effectiveness as far as other people are concerned, it's important to be polite--or perhaps if something is important enough I can be polite and concerned about harmony? Nope, actually, that's too thoughtful. More like, someone looks at me and they have some concern or query in their eye and I get upset because I know I can't make them at ease so I try to be smiling and happy anyway for the sake of just not getting upset anymore even though, actually in practice, it never works well but I haven't got any other resources...

    That last one in particular is either wrong as a presentation of when a shadow function is working for me or it's proof that Beebe shadows aren't that impressive because that "feeling" described above is easily conceived of as some combination of Ni/Te/Fi/Se all working together normally (or as normally as some combination of mature/growing/immature/basementdweller functions can.


    On the other hand... if to have Xy function really means that you have X function just like anyone else with X function except you happen to have a heavy y focus just so that you actually have a functioning function (because without direction, consciousness doesn't, um, "conch", a made up verb to instantiate a claim that consciousness that is static isn't consciousness), then technically, given some consciousness shaking circumstances, you can access the opposite focus too if you like.

    Which is to say, it needed be the case that the top four "functions" explain everything. As much as one would like them to, or as much as introspection seems to point that way, shadows aren't ruled out. Indeed, introspection could sort of be expected to hide the shadows. Introspection would be keyed to the familiar functions (or function orientations) as explanatory.

    How about "Use it or lose it"? The function orientations that oppose the function orientations of your top four "functions" are rarely (if ever) consciously animated. Blink and you miss them. (Or blink and you disguise them as what they aren't, your normal functions.) So how do they contribute? To call the unconscious mind "archaic" seems a bit of an understatement.
    When we speak of the shadows, it is mainly the archetypal complexes that form around the functions, and these are not always engaged. so again, as Lenore puts it, "the products of undifferentiated functions are perfectly capable of reaching consciousness" so long as they are linked to the goals of the dominant perspective.

    The complexes are what we project onto others, when some memory or something of an incident seen through the functional perspective evokes the complex. Then, it's not so much about "using" those functions, but rather how the complex (using the persoective of the function) will manifest.
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  4. #84
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So I'm working through your article, Eric, and puzzling over a few things, and I make the uncomfortable discovery that ego exists prior to differentiated functions. I find this idea upsetting, but only I guess because this ego is without determinate structure. Consciously it's just animation, right? But unconsciously, it's much more than that (or it's linked to much more than that), right? It's the whole of the unconsciousness? Or is it just potential? (Aka... um, unstructured libido?)

    Will read further.
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  5. #85
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    So you believed that the ego has no existence apart from differentiated functions?
    I think holding functions as perspectives helps separate them from the ego. The ego thinks it's the center of the psyche (which includes the unconscious), but the larger self is. The ego just chooses a differentiated preference.
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  6. #86
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    No, no. I don't know what the ego is at all. Too busy screwing around with functions to have wondered on it thus far. The thing is, a perilous strange intuition presented itself to me this morning, something that tottered around the mind-body divide. Wikipedia told me the ego, superego and id are functions of the mind and aren't (necessarily) to be confused with any particular somatic structure. So I thought to myself hmmm. Functions are the least likely things in the world to be mistaken for people. They aren't animated. The ego is animated though. So I wondered what it was.

    See, functions seem closer to the body than to the mind. They are at least a lot more amenable to mechanistic talk. Ego by contrast is very clearly some other kind of conceptual thing: it has liveliness built in. So-o-o-...

    ...something about how the mind-body issue just got hurdled and thus some instructive constraints maybe just got left behind, and um, like, we don't get to talk about ego as much more than the structureless spark of life?
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  7. #87
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Thinking about this further, it seems as it relates to functions, there are a few ways to define the Shadow, which fall into two primary buckets.

    Option 1 - Eruption of the Inferior
    One option is to reverse the order of the functions - an INTJ that normally has this function order:

    Ni, Te, Fi, Se

    Turns into an bad version of an ESFP:

    Se, Fi, Te, Ni

    So, in that example, our weakest function takes over when stressed, reversing our normal hierarchy. The shadow form stresses the negative aspect of each function during the experience.

    Option 2 - Functions Not In Our Top 4

    Complete function order for an INTJ: Ni Te Fi Se / Ne Ti Fe Si

    The Shadow functions in this case would be Ne, Ti, Fe, and Si

    Using Thompson's theory,
    The "crows nest" are Fe and Si
    The "double agents" are Ne and Ti

    An example of how one of these would be used is an INTJ using Ti to verify logical consistency of thinking.

    How these relate to "shadow" type behaviors, I'm not yet sure, but if one were to fall into a pattern of emphasizing their non-preferred process - like excessive use of double agents or crows nest, I would imagine it would create some form of imbalance.

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  8. #88
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post

    But...no matter how far down the path to individuation one travels, one never arrives. When we fail to admit that there are functions we do not use as capably, they can rise up to haunt us.

    Leave aside for a moment whether there are 4 functions in 2 attitudes or 8 separate functions (still a matter of great debate, actually) and think whether you truly know of anyone who is equally good at reality and conjecture, or at objectivity and subjectivity. Yes we gain skills, and we can turn them on and off. But when stress, or emotions, or exhaustion, or other factors ply at our control, the shadow can truly cause trouble. As someone old enough to carry an AARP card, I can say that my friends and I talk more about how we HAVEN'T mastered our shadow than incidences of where we have. We're still ourselves even if we understand the value of and find it easier to sometimes use the other side.
    ... and, the more I think about it, there there seems to be wisdom behind these words.

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  9. #89
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    If you want to say "negative aspects of personality", or "weaker aspects of personality that could bear improvement," and call that a "shadow," I really don't have any beef with that. If you want to say Ni-Te has a shadow of Ne-Ti or Se-Fi or Fi-Se, and therefore these are weak/dark/improvement-needing aspects of personality, I'll reply that you're putting the cart before the horse. In general, for an INTJ, all the aspects of personality that our outside of Ni-Te are "weak" or "shadows" or "bear improvement." Not just particular aspects in particular ways.
    The key behind all of this seems to be that shadow form of a function stresses the negative aspect of that particular function.
    I think this applies whether or not we are talking about a short term eruption of the inferior or longer term systemic patterns of cognition or behavior that relate to non preferred function attitudes - such as the shadow functions, the inferior, or the tertiary.

    I came across these items in another related thread that somehow I missed. The video is really good if you're in the right mood (first time I watched it, I fell asleep).

    http://www.ccc-apt.org/system/files/...+model+APT.pdf

    John Beebe - The Spine and its Shadow - Portal Psychologii Analitycznej C.G. Junga - Polish Journal of Analytical Psychology of C.G. Jung - psychoanaliza - archetyp

    Dr. John Beebe introduces his October 2008 workshop on the archetypes

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  10. #90
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    No, no. I don't know what the ego is at all. Too busy screwing around with functions to have wondered on it thus far. The thing is, a perilous strange intuition presented itself to me this morning, something that tottered around the mind-body divide. Wikipedia told me the ego, superego and id are functions of the mind and aren't (necessarily) to be confused with any particular somatic structure. So I thought to myself hmmm. Functions are the least likely things in the world to be mistaken for people. They aren't animated. The ego is animated though. So I wondered what it was.

    See, functions seem closer to the body than to the mind. They are at least a lot more amenable to mechanistic talk. Ego by contrast is very clearly some other kind of conceptual thing: it has liveliness built in. So-o-o-...

    ...something about how the mind-body issue just got hurdled and thus some instructive constraints maybe just got left behind, and um, like, we don't get to talk about ego as much more than the structureless spark of life?
    Funny, as I was just reading that Wikipedia article again today. Comparing Freud's theory to what I'm learning about Jung. It seems in both theories, the ego is the center of consciousness. The id sounds like Jung's "personal unconscious", and Lenore's "limbic system", while the super-ego sounds kind of like the "collective unconscious", at least in part.

    From what Lenore had been telling me, the functions are of the ego, and the frontal cortex, (in contrast to the limbic brain and the body). The Wikipedia article also says that the id was associated with the body. (If it wasn't that article, I also read the related article on Jung's paper "the Id and the Ego")
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