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  1. #61
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Hahahahah.

    No I'm not agreeing with you. I'm more saying, "There is no such thing as a tert." I'll use the language as a means of describing, but when I do so, I describe PEOPLE, and use language like tert, aux, or dom, to help classify those people.

    For me, as an INTJ, I identify more with Fi than Fe, as I see it play out in my life and elsewhere. However, I do agree with your observations that INTJs often seem to have really good Fe, especially older, more polite ones. I think this is a learned "faux Fe" if you will, playing a game that we know exists but really don't like to play.
    Or young ones who have been raised with an Fe aux mother.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think as you get older and as you have more experience with using different functions because they become necessary to express for your survival, you gain facility, but it's like learning to write with your right hand if you're a lefty.
    That's a great way of putting it.

  3. #63
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Well, functions are really interesting and play a part in it all but this is probably the best practical view of one's shadow.

    As an example. I know one INTP who is quite successful in his career. He is someone I very much like and respect. Unfortunately, he does have a tendency to operate out of excessive self interest/greed. Everybody else sees this. He can't see it. It has gotten him into some trouble over the years in spots but has not yet resulted in a crisis. I predict that it will if he is not able to address it. This has nothing to do with typology or the fact that he is an INTP.
    I like the Jungian idea of the shadow a great deal. I think it's helpful functionally, but also in a more general sense. In order for significant integration of the shadow to happen, one's existing coping strategies (and conception of self) must fall short. It's likely that nothing else than some failures will change your coworker and force him to confront what he's missing. None of use like to confront the Other within, and we tend to resist internal change when possible.

    I think understanding of functional development is deepened by seeing it in terms of the shadow, although I don't necessarily buy a fixed ranking and role/archetype for each function for each of the 16 types. It makes sense that during the late teens to early twenties we are deepest into our primary two functions, and tend to project the shadow outward onto the rest of the world (and there's a lot of shadow to project at that point). That period is both a time of high idealism and an intolerance for compromise.

    I also see elements of shadow projection in both American conservatives' demonizing of gays and "the elite," and liberals' demonizing of fundamentalists and Southerners. In both cases, people are projecting the rejected parts of themselves onto Others who are far away... not good people like you and me.

    One hopes that as we mature we claim those rejected parts of ourselves, since there is both power and tolerance in doing so.

  4. #64
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    In the case of the INTJ, whose functional preferences are NiTe, it isn't possible to describe "how they feel," except empirically. There was for a long while a debate about whether Fe or Fi is really the tertiary (it's a larger debate about whether the tertiary has an orientation the same or opposite the dominant function, and it still goes on today on this forum).
    I think what I said earlier explains this.
    Again, looking at it as they're being four functions (separate from the orientations), F is "the tertiary function". It naturally would be placed in the suppressed external realm, like the aux. and inferior. (thus, Fe). Yet the Puer complex orients it to the dominant internal attitude, thus yielding "Fi".

    All that's really going on is that we say, for example, Ni and Te. Then everything else are "other functions" that seem to come into play in odd ways. This cuts to the core of one's understanding of MBTI. Does one's type simply indicate preferences, so one actually has and uses all functions to some degree or another, or does one really only use a couple of function, which wiggle around and try and act like the others, except badly (hence shadows)? There is no way to decide the question. The mind is too flexible, too adaptable, to describe this way, I think. We're simply putting labels on what we think we see, but we have no concept of what it essentially is. Jung eventually abandoned his typology material: it was not a focus of his attention for long.
    As for the rest iof the functions, since they are not preferred like Ni and Te, they all can be considered "shadow". The inferior is on the border between a less unconscious and more unconscious area.
    People are making too much of the numerical ordering by saying "we don't really know what's after the first two". Just as much so as those who think it is actual strength or something.
    That just shows the roles they play in the unconscious, which mirror and shadow the first two.
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  5. #65
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm sorry, but all of this reads like astrology to me.

    To the extent that I like and understand MBTI and Jungian functions, I have always disliked the arbitrary "orderings" and "shadows" and similar extensions of the theory. I think it's all complete nonsense, attempting to describe something that simply is not describable in terms of the top two functional preferences.

    All that's really going on is that we say, for example, Ni and Te. Then everything else are "other functions" that seem to come into play in odd ways. This cuts to the core of one's understanding of MBTI. Does one's type simply indicate preferences, so one actually has and uses all functions to some degree or another, or does one really only use a couple of function, which wiggle around and try and act like the others, except badly (hence shadows)? There is no way to decide the question. The mind is too flexible, too adaptable, to describe this way, I think. We're simply putting labels on what we think we see, but we have no concept of what it essentially is. Jung eventually abandoned his typology material: it was not a focus of his attention for long.

    Shadow functions of all varieties, therefore (I conclude, not that I've proved anything, since it's all unfalsifiable), really can't be used except as post facto explanations of why someone doesn't appear to be behaving/perceiving/reacting according to type, but one hasn't enough justification to say that the person is a different type.
    Hmmm - this is an interesting perspective and one that I did not think you would have. I apologize in advance for the novel here...

    The first time I heard about the shadow, I was in an AMA management development program. The instructor asked us to list the top 10 characteristics of people we can't stand. He then asked us to list the top 10 characteristics of people we greatly admire. We each then read out the lists.

    He then explained this concept of the shadow and how we should carefully consider how many of those top 10 negative characteristics were attributes that we ourselves actually had but did not want to admit. He then suggested that the top 10 positive characteristics were the "gold" in the shadow - qualities we may not realize in ourselves that we had or could have. He then went onto explain the connection with MBTI - look at your opposite type and that your reaction would likely be "who is that!? yuk!".

    Having considered this concept over the years, my belief is that the way Cascadeco describes the shadow is absolutely dead on. It is real. There is absolutely no question in my mind that this thing exists.

    When it comes to MBTI/Functions and this shadow concept, I guess I had no opinion until I read Beside Ourselves. It made more impact on me than any book I'd read on MBTI. At first, I saw how what was being described resonated with me personally. Then I sought evidence as to how other types behaved when "in the grip of the inferior". I found numerous examples supporting the theory/concepts.

    Let's look at one example - what an eruption of the inferior looks like for an Introverted Intuitive type (e.g. INTJ and INFJ). From "Beside Ourselves":

    Typical provocations or triggers - "dealing with details, especially in an unfamiliar environment. " It is described, how at times, we feel "overwhelmed with details". Another trigger is "too much extraverting."

    What happens to the Introverted Intuitive? A few examples:
    "Obsessive Focus on External Data" - "experienced as a state of intensity and drivenness", "obsessing about facts and details", "i stew about what is going on...am mentally fatigued and find myself putting things in order and trying to control everything around me", "i nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud", "i get hung up on some false fact and distort it"
    "Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures" - "takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure"
    "Aversarial attitude towards the outer world" - "I feel anxious, exposed and childish", "I become dogmatic and blast people with facts", "I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, close minded, and impatient"

    You get the idea. Horrible stuff to be sure. When we are at our absolute worst though - what do we act like? Understanding what the triggers are, how we respond to them, etc. - is extraordinary self knowledge to have.

    So, Uumlau, Aphrodite or anyone else for that matter - if you doubt there is validity to this concept of the "shadow", I would encourage you to read that book. I'd encourage you to list the top 10 negative qualities and top 10 positive ones, and think about it.

    As far as the specific ordering of the functions go, I can't say for sure, but I'm quite intrigued by what Andy and others have provided in this thread.

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  6. #66
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Let's look at one example - what an eruption of the inferior looks like for an Introverted Intuitive type (e.g. INTJ and INFJ). From "Beside Ourselves":

    Typical provocations or triggers - "dealing with details, especially in an unfamiliar environment. " It is described, how at times, we feel "overwhelmed with details". Another trigger is "too much extraverting."
    I've read this stuff somewhere on here before, and I guess I didn't have time/take the time to respond then......I do not feel overwhelmed with details or extravert too much when I'm stressed, necessarily. I might, but I'd do lots of other things too.

    What happens to the Introverted Intuitive? A few examples:
    "Obsessive Focus on External Data" - "experienced as a state of intensity and drivenness", "obsessing about facts and details", "i stew about what is going on...am mentally fatigued and find myself putting things in order and trying to control everything around me", "i nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud", "i get hung up on some false fact and distort it"
    "Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures" - "takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure"
    "Aversarial attitude towards the outer world" - "I feel anxious, exposed and childish", "I become dogmatic and blast people with facts", "I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, close minded, and impatient"
    First of all, how can these behaviors be attributed to Se? The stewing could be construed as an Ni/Ti loop. Bombard people verbally could be over use of Fe. Second of all, yeah, okay, I know lots of people besides dominant irrationals who do these things when they are stressed. And third, I might do some of these, but I also do other things too, like withdraw or go on a healthy hike or go out to eat with a friend to talk. It's not necessarily ugly and it's not necessarily done via a recipe.

    I have done the ESTP shadow thing, but mostly when I was much younger, like still in intermediate/high school. Still, it didn't necessarily reflect any definite pattern when I stressed.

    Could you give an example of another type out of that same reference for study?

    I think it has to be considered that this is another Forer effect at play; finding ways to fit in to a certain mold.
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  7. #67
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I've read this stuff somewhere on here before, and I guess I didn't have time/take the time to respond then......I do not feel overwhelmed with details or extravert too much when I'm stressed, necessarily. I might, but I'd do lots of other things too.

    First of all, how can these behaviors be attributed to Se? The stewing could be construed as an Ni/Ti loop. Bombard people verbally could be over use of Fe. Second of all, yeah, okay, I know lots of people besides dominant irrationals who do these things when they are stressed. And third, I might do some of these, but I also do other things too, like withdraw or go on a healthy hike or go out to eat with a friend to talk. It's not necessarily ugly and it's not necessarily done via a recipe.

    I have done the ESTP shadow thing, but mostly when I was much younger, like still in intermediate/high school. Still, it didn't necessarily reflect any definite pattern when I stressed.

    Could you give an example of another type out of that same reference for study?

    I think it has to be considered that this is another Forer effect at play; finding ways to fit in to a certain mold.
    I don't care about fitting into any mold.

    Just to be clear - the things that cause the response are the stressors - like too much detail for an introverted intuitive. A practical example for me personally is when I used to do my own taxes. I became an obnoxious person. Every time.

    What I can only say is that as I read these things, they resonated for me personally and deeply (need to read the book). I picked a few quotes that resonated with INTJ and not necessarily INFJ.

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  8. #68
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Seriously man, being obnoxious is nothing. There's gotta be a better example. You're lucky if that's all the ESFP shadow does.

  9. #69
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default How about Introverted Thinkers?

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    I

    Could you give an example of another type out of that same reference for study?
    Again, encouraging people to read the book, but some key quotes from Naomi Quenk for Introverted Thinking Types,

    "Introverted thinkers may frequently notice and comment on what they consider to be inappropriate, irrelevant, even histrionic communication styles and behaviors by others."

    "Being around people who are expressing strong emotion can serve as a trigger for intuitive thinkers, especially if others are criticizing their personal characteristics."

    Logic emphasized to an extreme - "Introverted thinking types in the grip of the inferior extraverted feeling may become passionately insistent on the application of logic, becoming quite emotional about their approach."

    Hypersensitivity to Relationships - "In the grip of the inferior extraverted feeling, the introverted thinker experiences increasing hypersensitivity to feeling areas"

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  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    However, I do agree with your observations that INTJs often seem to have really good Fe, especially older, more polite ones. I think this is a learned "faux Fe" if you will, playing a game that we know exists but really don't like to play.
    ahhh......!!!

    Nice, I had been puzzling over that for awhile but hadn't quite come to conclusions on it. I've noticed it, though, too. There's at least a social sensibility that mirrors Fe and they can play by the rules... the thing is I could tell realistically that it was all just in order to follow established protocol in order to keep everything functioning efficiently and things clarified, but not because the Fe stuff was the preferred style. If you get the same INTJs alone, I had found them as blunt and crass as any typical NT; the Fe thing was just a costume. That's different from the primary/secondary Fe'ers, who actually seem to think in terms of Fe first as far as what behavior should be followed in a social setting.
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