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  1. #21
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelhair45 View Post
    .
    I'm interested in why some people operate in a function that is opposite or nearly opposite for lengthy periods of time. I have done so, and I am extremely curious as to how it all happened.

    It could be shadows, baggage etc. In my case it does seem like it was brought on my events in my life, but maybe I just have a really strong Mrs. Hyde inside.
    I operated on my shadow side almost exclusively for years after a bad divorce. It will also come out when I am working 70 hour weeks and put in charge of things, being forced to extrovert and involve other people because I need them to do what needs to be done. I think as you get older and as you have more experience with using different functions because they become necessary to express for your survival, you gain facility, but it's like learning to write with your right hand if you're a lefty. Eventually you may be able to do it but it may never feel natural, and if left to your own devices, you would do things differently.

    As far as projecting the shadow, I have my doubts about some of that.

  2. #22
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think any lack of self awareness and lack of inner scrutiny, objectivity, honesty, and personal accountability can over time lead to the 'seeds of our downfall'. Whether that be holding onto un-truths about ourselves, not acknowledging our personal failings/weaknesses, blaming outside entities or individuals for our own misfortunes, trying to control for the uncontrollable, not controlling enough for what IS controllable, etc etc... I think the 'shadow' could EITHER be an over-reliance on our primary instincts, where over time we become too single-minded and blot out other input/possibilities/behaviors, therefore with a tendency for self-fulfilling prophecies and repeat scenarios over and over again, OR going the opposite extreme of trying to reject all primary/root aspects of self to try to be someone we aren't, thus creating a dichotomy between inner self and outer self, and loss of self in the process, possibly. Balance, balance, balance. hehe. Perhaps my notion of 'Shadow' is more one who is out of balance, unhealthy, either in a holding pattern or enacting behaviors that result in less than optimal self. Opposite of self-actualization, I suppose.


    On a related note, I like the concept of balance but it feels to me more stable than what I experience, so I generally like using "homeostasis" because I notice that I oscillate back and forth between various tendencies. If I think of this as balance, I feel like I hold myself to too high a standard, but if I think of it as something that oscillates around a balanced point, it feels more comfortable as a concept. "Balance" brings out my perfectionism. I don't know if that just made sense.
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  3. #23
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post


    On a related note, I like the concept of balance but it feels to me more stable than what I experience, so I generally like using "homeostasis" because I notice that I oscillate back and forth between various tendencies. If I think of this as balance, I feel like I hold myself to too high a standard, but if I think of it as something that oscillates around a balanced point, it feels more comfortable as a concept. "Balance" brings out my perfectionism. I don't know if that just made sense.
    Oscillating around a balanced point makes sense to me. I too feel I have various sides to my personality, and to deny one side is to deny a part of my identity; however there's most definitely a 'balanced point' - perhaps it's learning how to effectively oscillate between the different elements so that all are met and you don't sit in any one element for too long. (not that one has to be militant about it, but, you know)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  4. #24
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    that could bring up an interesting question about strengths of cognitive functions that are farther down on the list... I'm an ESTP who's had some definite tough times and problems in the past and my function STRENGTHS go 1,8,2,6,3,5,4,7... the question here is could the bizzare order of functions and strengths be a result of spending too much time lurking in the shadows by some strange chance?
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #25
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    that could bring up an interesting question about strengths of cognitive functions that are farther down on the list... I'm an ESTP who's had some definite tough times and problems in the past and my function STRENGTHS go 1,8,2,6,3,5,4,7... the question here is could the bizzare order of functions and strengths be a result of spending too much time lurking in the shadows by some strange chance?
    In terms of function preferance, that order looks fairly normal. Remember, the function order of a type only dictates how it is used, not how much. Given that numbers 1,2 and 7 and 8 are the strongest the only oddness is that 7 is so low. Even that's not really very surprising.

  6. #26
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    my Fi sucks
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  7. #27
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    my Fi sucks
    Don't worry, it's only your trickster function. It just means you're not very good at pretending to have morals, lol.

  8. #28
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    very true... I'm good at pretending to be amoral

    though nice
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  9. #29
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    As it happens, I don't consider the shadow functions to be always bad, in the same way that I don't regard the conscious functions as always being good. It's a very alluring picture, the idea that we might be carrying around Mr. Hyde inside us all, some dark, shadowy figure we can blame all our wrong doing on, but I don't think the truth is that simple.

    First of all, I think that the shadow and concious functions are linked to each other in terms of use and development. The 8th place function is the stongest of the most developed of the shadow functions and the 5th the least. That is to say, both introvered percieving functions develop together, as do both extroverted judging functions and so on.

    This creates a U-shape in terms of development, with the weakest functions in the middle. Thus the functions we have the best use of are 1,2, 7 and 8. Functions 3 - 6 are the ones most likely to give us trouble when they opperate.
    There is so much interesting perspective here. A link to the function ordering. I think you're referring to Beebe?

    Jungian cognitive functions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Given that, with this working INTJ example, the ordering is:
    1 Ni
    2 Te
    3 Fi
    4 Se
    5 Ne
    6 Ti
    7 Fe
    8 Si

    Is that right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    The shadow functions tend to have a somewhat "impersonal feel" to them, I think, especially number 7, the trickster function. When the shadow functions operate, they don't feel as intrinsic to who we are. An ITJ has trickster Fe for example, and many of us find ourselves projecting an image what we want other to see, or just allowing other people to see what they want in use, then agreeing with them afterwards because it makes then happy or less bothersome, while remaining detected from it all underneath.

    Similarly, we will use Si, but only in the persuit of our Ni goals. It's a way of thinking we can utilise successfully, but it doesn't motivate us like Ni does.

    Of the bothersome functions, 3 and 6 tend to have an inhibiting character about them, when they misfire. In an INTJ both Fi and Ti can undermine confidance. Misfiring Fi causes us to question our motivations and what we really want. Critical Ti sits there and punches holes in our idea, causing us to doubt our ideas. When they work correctly, Fi becomes a source of strength and Ti acts a double check on our ideas.

    In an extrovert, the tertiary can provoke rash actions - it inhibits thinking about the problem too deeply. An extroverted critical functions keeps telling the person that things are being done wrong, becoming the voice of doom as it neighsays everything. An ETPs critical Te, for instance, will happily poke the user into telling everybody around them that they are weak and incompetant, the government isn't being run right and so on, while not lifting a finger to actually do something about these observations. When they are working correctly, the 3rd functions provides a new way or getting things done in the world, and the 6th remains the person that there are certain things that have to be done, even if they aren't much fun.

    THe 5thand 6th functions tend to be distracting when they fail. THe opposing function will tend to lead us blind allies. For example, while an INTJ is trying to put some long term Ni plan together, 5th place Ne will be suggesting all the other things we could be doing. If followed, it creates a situation in which the INTJ has a half a dozen unfinished projects, which is something that they find unsatisfying.
    These comments above really resonate. What a great description.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Y
    Hmmm, and Jennifer () said above that there's INTPs moving to Te out there too. Are you (both) talking about fundamental cognitive processing or learned behaviours? As in, do you get into states where the form of what occurs in your conscious processing is introverted thinking, or do you summon up some training and enough similar basic cognitive functioning to perform what in another person would have been performed by Ti? Do you force actual Ti usages inside your head or do you knuckle down and produce behaviors that correspond to a Ti user's?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    My personal perception is that it is learned behavior... if that term applies within the "cognitive preference" framework.
    At what point does a behavior and way of thinking become just a role you put on vs an actual part of the person in question?


    I just have stepped away from myself and seen that I respond to a lot of things in my life out of a sense of Fe values and interrelationship. What does this make me? I don't know. Confused, maybe. But that experience coupled with my focus on my Secondary (Ne), it leads me to believe that it's possible to think smoothly and unconsciously in terms of other things besides the orignially preferred function.
    In my experience, it is a combination of learned behavior (emulated mode) and natural behavior (true self). My two examples were Ti and Ne which I said I was reasonably comfortable with.

    Taking Ti as an example - "organizing information according to an internal framework, model, or blueprint and logically prioritizing these categories in terms of the decision to be made", "seeks precision in use of words and the selection of which data to consider...designs taxonomies for data and ideas" (Hartzler)

    I probably learned these things doing consulting work. I realized the hard way that many people needed to understand things in this way in order to be persuaded that my recommendations made sense. Left to my own devices, my inclination is to do a fair bit of information gathering, thinking and contemplation and then jump to an answer. It makes sense for me but not others. So I've developed a way to emulate Ti for the sake of convincing/persuading others.

    Ne might be different. That seems a bit more natural somehow. Maybe the flip side of your dominant is easier or more natural to develop. It seems contrary to Andy's theory though that I should be comfortable with it since it's #5.

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  10. #30
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I guess I'll be the only one so far who doesn't really give a rip about the cognitive function definition of shadow. I think trying to stick to it can needlessly complicate things as well as be inapplicable to some or several individuals based on other elements of their psychae, life experiences, and whatnot. I like a broader perspective, more psychological in scope. I think the first definition of 'Shadow' that you posted is more along those lines.

    I think any lack of self awareness and lack of inner scrutiny, objectivity, honesty, and personal accountability can over time lead to the 'seeds of our downfall'. Whether that be holding onto un-truths about ourselves, not acknowledging our personal failings/weaknesses, blaming outside entities or individuals for our own misfortunes, trying to control for the uncontrollable, not controlling enough for what IS controllable, etc etc... I think the 'shadow' could EITHER be an over-reliance on our primary instincts, where over time we become too single-minded and blot out other input/possibilities/behaviors, therefore with a tendency for self-fulfilling prophecies and repeat scenarios over and over again, OR going the opposite extreme of trying to reject all primary/root aspects of self to try to be someone we aren't, thus creating a dichotomy between inner self and outer self, and loss of self in the process, possibly. Balance, balance, balance. hehe. Perhaps my notion of 'Shadow' is more one who is out of balance, unhealthy, either in a holding pattern or enacting behaviors that result in less than optimal self. Opposite of self-actualization, I suppose.
    Well, functions are really interesting and play a part in it all but this is probably the best practical view of one's shadow.

    As an example. I know one INTP who is quite successful in his career. He is someone I very much like and respect. Unfortunately, he does have a tendency to operate out of excessive self interest/greed. Everybody else sees this. He can't see it. It has gotten him into some trouble over the years in spots but has not yet resulted in a crisis. I predict that it will if he is not able to address it. This has nothing to do with typology or the fact that he is an INTP.

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