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  1. #71
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    The trouble for me is that such people usually jump into a thread with something along the lines of "OMG a logical fallacy, you appealed to majority sentiment/historical precedent/etc.! you must be an ESFJ not an NT!"

    When a whole forum runs along those lines, it becomes a shame, because a promising concept (an INTP/INTJ forum) becomes overtaken by the most exaggerated and unhealthy elements of a type, dictating a form of perverse "pure logic" which runs in the face of any realistic or creative thinking. (one of the reasons I post on Typology Central instead).

    So I think Litvyak has a point here actually.

    Of course this is not to criticize people who are interested that a debate should be logical or who call logical fallacies now and again when it's necessarry to do so. Rather extreme cases who think that the abstract logic is superior to the real issues being discussed (or who repress their Fi/Fe to the extent that they lie to themselves that emotionally-driven opinions are purely logical and objective).
    I've spent/spend so much time on IC that I can spot a fallacy from a mile away. Which I must grudgingly admit, I'm pretty grateful for. Also, I can spot when it's being done in good faith, and when someone is trying to pull a fast one. Which dictates how I respond to it. If someone is making an honest mistake then I will take the time to engage them, but if someone is simply "trying to be right by whatever means" I don't see the point in that dialog. Calling bullshit by listing the fallacy/fallacies in question is good enough for me.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

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  2. #72
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    I've spent/spend so much time on IC that I can spot a fallacy from a mile away. Which I must grudgingly admit, I'm pretty grateful for. Also, I can spot when it's being done in good faith, and when someone is trying to pull a fast one. Which dictates how I respond to it. If someone is making an honest mistake then I will take the time to engage them, but if someone is simply "trying to be right by whatever means" I don't see the point in that dialog. Calling bullshit by listing the fallacy/fallacies in question is good enough for me.
    I don't mind it if it's correctly applied. There are times when it's correct to call a fallacy, but on some levels of reasoning "formal logic" simply falls down. For example in mathematics we can prove that at some times a = -a. That flies in the face of formal logic. Or we can show that a "vacuum" is not empty, but a process by which particles and anti-particles negate each other. Or that the angles of a triangle don't necessarilly add up to 180 degress on a large enough scale.

    So in some cases these things have their place, but a genuine historical/poltiical discussion can't be policed take place entirely within the bounds of "formal logic". At least in my opinion.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  3. #73
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't mind it if it's correctly applied. There are times when it's correct to call a fallacy, but on some levels of reasoning "formal logic" simply falls down. For example in mathematics we can prove that at some times a = -a. That flies in the face of formal logic. Or we can show that a "vacuum" is not empty, but a process by which particles and anti-particles negate each other. Or that the angles of a triangle don't necessarily add up to 180 degress on a large enough scale.

    So in some cases these things have their place, but a genuine historical/political discussion can't be policed take place entirely within the bounds of "formal logic". At least in my opinion.
    See I could go into great detail about why that's not true or I can just say that's a propositional fallacy.

    While in this particular case I don't believe you are trying to pull a fast one, it's just simpler to say that's a propositional fallacy than going into the "that's not true because..."
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

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  4. #74
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Judging by this site, there are 42 fallacies.

    Fallacies

    I guess it's not as vast or complicated as I thought. I assumed you guys were all philosophy PHDs or law students.

    You just don't learn this stuff in Accounting. But even so, I still stand by my observation that INTPs seem to favor the logic of their opponent's reasoning instead of the general idea at hand.
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  5. #75
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    See I could go into great detail about why that's not true or I can just say that's a propositional fallacy.

    While in this particular case I don't believe you are trying to pull a fast one, it's just simpler to say that's a propositional fallacy than going into the "that's not true because..."
    I don't see why it's a propositional fallacy (I just looked the term up). I didn't say formal logic is never true, I said it's sometimes untrue, i.e. it can't encompass all of reality, so you can't have an effective debate about "reality" (which is what politics and history discussions should seek to get to the heart of) purely on those grounds.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #76
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I don't see why it's a propositional fallacy (I just looked the term up). I didn't say formal logic is never true, I said it's sometimes untrue, i.e. it can't encompass all of reality, so you can't have an effective debate about "reality" (which is what politics and history discussions should seek to get to the heart of) on those grounds.
    It's arguably untrue under a very exact circumstance (Math) that doesn't include in the circumstance you named (History and Politics). Also I'm pretty sure that someone better versed in formal logic than I can explain how those exceptions you named aren't really exceptions.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  7. #77
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    It's arguably untrue under a very exact circumstance (Math) that doesn't include in the circumstance you named (History and Politics). Also I'm pretty sure that someone better versed in formal logic than I can explain how those exceptions you named aren't really exceptions.
    If it's untrue in Maths its untrue in advanced physics. Advanced physics states the laws that govern the universe. If the activity of the matter of the unvierse contradicts formal logic, that doesn't speak well of the ability of formal logic to explain social processes.

    The reason I used mathematical and physical examples is because they are less likely to be questioned than historical/poltiical discussions.

    In any case I should state an interest: I believe in dialectical materialism, that it is an advance on formal logic, and that it has been backed up by advances in physics and maths.

    I recommend the book "the dialectical biologist" by Richard Levins and Richard Lewontin, if you are interested in these things.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #78
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    The Google says Dialectic Materialism = Marxism.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  9. #79
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Yes. I'm a marxist.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #80
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Yes. I'm a marxist.
    Well your Marxism aside, it has just been explained to me, as I suspected exactly why your examples don't hold up

    When this is used as a counter-example against formal logic you can just stop reading for he has clearly no understanding of formal logic. The group Z_2 of elements {0,1} and operation * where a*b = a+b mod 2, is a system which is logically consistent and this guy is
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

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