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  1. #91
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Basically it has been admitted that formal logic is inaqequate when it comes to higher maths and advanced physics. But people still try to apply it to history and politics.
    What does it mean to "apply" formal logic to history and politics, or, for that matter, anything else?

  2. #92
    Energizer Bunny Resonance's Avatar
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    This is a different helios from the one who accidentally posted pictures of his testicles, right?
    The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. ~ rCoxI ~ INfj ~ 5w6 so/sp

  3. #93
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    Thank you, dear participants, for proving my point. G'night.
    Did you ever think you might yourself be living up to negative stereotypes about INTJ's? (i.e. highly-strung, needlessly rude, "brooding" like a genius but without intellectual acheivements to back up said attitude, etc.?)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyway seeing as MBTI is about communication and not throwing insults, I will explain. I do not see it as "nerdy" or "mental masturbation" to justify a philosophical system, because a philosophical system has real life implications. You say you want to get "the heart of the issue", but to me you cannot get to the heart of an issue in an ad-hoc manner, differing issue-by-issue, rather you need to approach it with the correct logical framework to begin with. In fact once you have the correct framework 95% of the work is done.

    This is not an MBTI thing, as I know people of varying types who agree on this. Perhaps however, such an approach does come more instictively to an IXTP.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #94
    Senior Member Helios's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blairvoyant View Post
    This is a different helios from the one who accidentally posted pictures of his testicles, right?
    I'm not the Helios from INTPc, if that's the one you're referring to.

    Thank God.

  5. #95
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby View Post
    i think many of them use fancy words like that more than they normally would just to live up to the smartsy intp image
    or maybe they are the most accurate words to use many times?

  6. #96
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    "anti-formal logic" is nothing. I just meant that dialectical materialism is opposed to formal logic.

    Formal logic can break down if we can show if osmething can be both true and untrue at the same time. However dialectical logic does not break down if we show this, because "unity of opposites" is one of the three fundamental rules of dialectical materialism (the other two being "negation of the negation" and "quantity into quality").

    So how, according to a formal logic x sometimes = -x, and sometimes not?
    The response(wtf have I started?) :
    Quote Originally Posted by him
    Ok, at least he is correct on how formal logic breaks down, or to be precise how logical systems based on formal logic break down, to bad for him that is what is called logical inconsistencies, which he refused to acknowledge. This can only happen if the axioms lead to contradictory results(see Russel's paradox for an interesting development of the foundation of mathematics, as well as Frege's dreams being crushed). This does not mean that formal logic is at fault.


    Quote Originally Posted by you
    So how, according to a formal logic x sometimes = -x, and sometimes not?:

    Quote Originally Posted by him
    First of all, for all algebraic systems, including the real numbers 0 = -0, so this equation isn't faulty in any way. He probably is assuming x != 0, so ok, i'll give him an example of this. Take again the Z_2 or just any Z_(2k), where k \in N, the natural numbers(and the operation * is not a*b = a+b mod 2k). Then for, say k=2, we have the elements {0,1,2,3}. The operation table would be , like this:

    0 * x = 0
    1 * 0 = 1
    1 * 1 = 2
    1 * 2 = 3
    1 * 3 = 0
    2 * 1 = 3
    2 * 2 = 0
    ..... and so on.
    But here we have 2 * 2 = 0
    if we denote the inverse element of the element x, by -x, we get: 2 = -2, and the equation x = -x has a non-zero solution.

    I suspect he is just reading things that are way over his head and drawing bad conclusions. So formal logic is failing; for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by someone else
    I don't have time for a full response, but I'd like to point out that the person cited by the OP's final point about how political or historical debates cannot be constrained within formal logic is wholly irrational. Similar to how Einstein's theories and Newton's laws work in the natural world despite quantum mechanics, the analysis of an understood system doesn't alter in truth based on obscure exceptions to the method of analysis. That only alludes to what we don't understand, but doesn't change the functionality or accuracy of an analytical system like formal logic, ESPECIALLY in a day-to-day sense.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  7. #97
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Jesus Christ. Look at the two of you go. And considering what my whole post was about.

    This is practically satire material.
    3w4-9w1-?w6 (nearly headless nick)
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    COCKBURN:

    http://sundrytimes.files.wordpress.c...tomic-bomb.jpg


  8. #98
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Among INTPs there is a love of intellectual discourse to be sure, and many sport a rather pedantic verbiage. For those whose posts favor brevity, and whose spoken words are few, there is no inconsistency (Why not use a single word that represents a sentence or more?). It is the few who choose to sprinkle their long-winded lectures with little gems from their handy-dandy-thesauri who are apt to put others to sleep.

    Also, the INTP often misses the point of intellectual conversation (to adequately transfer information), and fails to express himself in a way that resonates with his audience; vomiting his words at the feet of his listeners, so to speak.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #99
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    :steam: :eek: :jofticon_1:
    Nice distraction tactic. The real question is: Why do you feel the need to distract from the real issue?

  10. #100
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    The fallacies are easy to remember. In fact, it was necessary for the written portion of the GRE (though admittedly they did not require that we memorize the Latin.) They're also used ALL THE TIME in academic writing.

    I memorized them early on (in high school) because I was tired of coming across phrases like "post hoc" in my reading and either not knowing, or having to cross-reference, their meaning. It seems like I'd be missing a lot, or incompetent in some way, if I didn't know them (especially since they're simple and pretty easy to remember.) And once you know them, it's difficult not to use them for greater concision.
    You're right, as usual, but the search of fallacies isn't especially associated with INTPs.
    As a matter of fact, the vast majority of INTPs here don't even know what a real "strawman" fallacy is, they just use the term inappropriately and for every purpose. It's just a standard, pedantic (but ignorant) way to say they disagree with you. Epistemological figures aren't that easy to understand or master, unless, like you said, you had been professionally trained to recognize them.

    And if you ask them the difference between a deduction, an abduction, an induction or a transduction, most of them won't know how to answer it, unless they google it and try to mimick knowledge they don't really possess.

    Remember that most young INTPs are just posers.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

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