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  1. #51
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The number of times I have read a basic criticism of INTJs, that they impose arbitrary judgments...

    But yeah, there is a measure of conformity to reality. It tends, however, to be along the lines of "Well, we can't do this bizarre thing this way, but I have an idea that if we bend this and crack that and that guy pulls a bit harder....." In other words, reality as it currently stands is sorted through to identify the means by which the bizarre dream, aka the new reality, will be instantiated.

    And whether or not that ^ is actually true, it is certainly the perception. We, Team INTJ, take ourselves to be unlimited by reality as it stands. Welcome to Thunderdome.
    I think INTJ independence is different from INTP independence. Many INTP's conform with Fe. Therefore, it would seem to be "more conforming" than INTJ's Te which are usually purely systematical. But I guess it would really depend on what your Ni is. Whether it requires a significant amount of conformity or so radical that it could cause incredible opposition.

    INTP's independence is usually a lack of care for the "goal". It's that person who criticizes a model or a person who's motivated by the process of work.

    This "independence" thing seems too relative to many factors I'd rather not proceed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I've provided a definition. What would you say "independence" means?

    The following is the first sentence in Gifts Differing written by Isabel Briggs Myers and Peter Myers, in describing the INTJ personality type, "INTJs are the most independent of all the sixteen types and take more or less conscious pride in that independence."
    Independent in an INTJ way. Yet, no, I disagree if we're talking "doing work alone". Because this is quite a relative thing.

  2. #52
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Because Ne and Se need external stimuli to thrive.
    That's one way to look at it -- I was defining independence sort of as self-identity (Si processing information in a 100% derivative manner), so I guess we're both right. I did say in my very first post here, that it all depends on how one defines independence.
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  3. #53
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    How is Si more independent than Ne or Se?
    The reason why there's an "e" in Ne or Se is because it relies on external stimulus. It likes external "things", "people" that contributes more to their present senses or ideas.

  4. #54
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I think you're getting too wrapped up into theory on this. How many INTJs and INTPs do you know?

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  5. #55
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think you're getting too wrapped up into theory on this. How many INTJs and INTPs do you know?
    I don't know. Less than 20 surely but this is irrelevant if we're only reflecting theory stuff.

    Different theories will provide different things so we rely on observational experiences? If we do, then no, mine isn't sufficient to formulate a proper "pattern".

    If we look at the functions however, I think it shows hints that implies effect on "independence". I have lost my interest however. Thank you and good Luck..

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    That's one way to look at it -- I was defining independence sort of as self-identity (Si processing information in a 100% derivative manner), so I guess we're both right. I did say in my very first post here, that it all depends on how one defines independence.
    Ne and Se don't give you self-identity. They may not be as reliant upon others as Fe or Te, but Fi or Ti give you this sense of self-identity, just as an Si dom/auxes collection of experiences gives them their self-identity.

    Do you actually know many Si doms?

    Are you in touch with your own Si? If so, how do you experience it? Do you know?

  7. #57
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Are you in touch with your own Si? If so, how do you experience it? Do you know?
    My Si is somewhat weak and sputtering, but I do lean on it frequently. I generally use it in support to the other three functions, especially Te (searching for evidence) and Fi (pleasant memories -- frequently some random word or a sound will evoke a song I like, which I presume is Fi + Ne + Si at work).
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  8. #58
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    "Though a single word cannot possibly describe any type, the word independence gives a thematic thrust to the overall drive of the INTJ. Clearly this is the force that motivates them. If they could, they would wish independence upon everyone. This drive for independence can conflict with the INTJ's need to control his or her immediate surroundings. So, colleagues and subordinates must recognize that wile independence is the ultimate goal, it is to be meted out as the INTJ deems appropriate."

    From "Type Talk at Work" by Otto Kroeger and Janet Thueson

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  9. #59
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I think INTJ independence is different from INTP independence. Many INTP's conform with Fe. Therefore, it would seem to be "more conforming" than INTJ's Te which are usually purely systematical. But I guess it would really depend on what your Ni is. Whether it requires a significant amount of conformity or so radical that it could cause incredible opposition.

    INTP's independence is usually a lack of care for the "goal". It's that person who criticizes a model or a person who's motivated by the process of work.
    Sounds right.

    And we haven't even heard from the ISTPs yet. They're probably off doing their own thing,
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  10. #60
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    ^
    Introversion/Extroversion determines the affinity for "independence". Pi requires introversion and at the same time dislikes external outputs. What's about it that dislikes independence?

    It's from introverted functions to judgment functions then to perceiving functions.

    Independence(+):

    Ti
    Fi
    Ni
    Si


    Independence(-):

    Ne
    Se
    Te
    Fe
    Wrong.
    There is a U-turn.

    Independent
    Fi
    Ti
    Ne
    Se

    Unindependent
    Fe
    Te
    Ni
    Si

    Inclusion does not provide a variant.
    Arrow does not turn.

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