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  1. #31
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Your saying that one person can view something the exact same way another person can?
    Well, no, but no one uses one function to the exclusion of any others. Si-dominants raised in similar environments can be pretty damn similar to each other though.
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  2. #32
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    All extraverted functions would appear to lean towards conformity with external forces. There is no difference.
    No, at least not Ne and Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Not under introverted intuition, it's not. When intuition is taking the lead, thinking serves. Thus the usual INTJ idea that reality is what *I* construct it to be.
    But how will you promote that reality? With Te I presume? Thinking does serve but because there is Ni, there is Te. If you cannot Te(conform), you cannot fulfill the "desires" of Ni. Unless your Ni is so unconformable.


    INTJ because they'll be wanting to say they can make any connection there is, even the unthinkables; INTP because they'll be saying they can reach the truth of any concept... or something, I dunno why INTPs claim independence except that dominant subjectivity always makes one think one is one.
    That is a different type of independence methinks. Ability?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well, no, but no one uses one function to the exclusion of any others. Si-dominants raised in similar environments can be pretty damn similar to each other though.
    No they aren't. At least not any more similar than other people of any given type. There are obviously certain traits that make type more or less identifiable, whether thats Si-dom or Ne-dom.

    I'd like for you to compare an Si-dom who grew up in a liberal home in Las Vegas where there was violence and alcholism, but lots of affection, to say an Si-dom who grew up in a conservative Christian home in Alabama where there was repression and complete rejection of all alcohol, cigarettes, etc. but there was very little affection and you would have TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEMS.

    I dare say that with your prejudice you wouldn't even recognize the first theoretical person as an Si-dom.

    Edit: you also need to take into consideration the fact that even twins who grow up in the same family have different experiences once they start school, make their own friends, etc. A random event or person can deeply impact an individuals life experience, making them quite different from someone who lives in the same town, or even belongs to the same family.

  4. #34
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InsatiableCuriosity View Post
    I would question this perspective. My creed is the alcoholics' prayer (tho I rarely drink):

    G*d grant me the ability to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference!

    In an organisation of 2000 employees I am probably the least likely to be accepting of how things are if the status quo is ineffective or toxic. I am known for questioning authority on the hard questions and was the academic staff member selected to serve on a committee to establish anti-bullying policy and procedure.

    My poor MD had his perspective and existing policy questioned and challenged by me on more than one occasion. We did end up with educational and informative policy and procedures and a completely new selection criteria for management selection which was far more people centric than had ever been before.

    I am known in our org. for identifying issues but instead of just bitching about them, getting in and finding and scoping solutions to those problems - a forte of INTPs.
    I'm sure these things are all true. INTPs in particular are great at asking these types of questions.

    That being said, you can define independence as, "freedom from control or influence of another". This is a defining characteristic of INTJ. As Kalach has indicated, it's not all good.

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  5. #35
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well, no, but no one uses one function to the exclusion of any others.
    That is why people have a number of functions, because functions will share a relationship amongst each other---resulting into different types.


    Si-dominants raised in similar environments can be pretty damn similar to each other though.
    As a result of Si-Je methinks. An Si-Dom, however, can be very rebellious. Think Rorschach from Watchmen.

  6. #36
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    No, at least not Ne and Se.


    But how will you promote that reality? With Te I presume? Thinking does serve but because there is Ni, there is Te. If you cannot Te(conform), you cannot fulfill the "desires" of Ni. Unless your Ni is so unconformable.



    That is a different type of independence methinks. Ability?
    Outside of this thread, I have never heard anyone suggest that INTP is more independent than INTJ. In fact, i can point to numerous authors who would point to the opposite. Knowing myself and knowing others who are INTP, no attempt at a logical argument would convince me that those authors are wrong.

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  7. #37
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'd like for you to compare an Si-dom who grew up in a liberal home in Las Vegas where there was violence and alcholism, but lots of affection, to say an Si-dom who grew up in a conservative Christian home in Alabama where there was repression and complete rejection of all alcohol, cigarettes, etc. but there was very little affection and you would have TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITH TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT VALUE SYSTEMS.
    Who grew up in two totally different backgrounds and became two totally different people as a result, thus not contradicting my point in any way whatsoever.

    In any case we're getting sidetracked from my original point, which is that the expression of Si is a sum of its experiences, unmodified and unfiltered. Thus it can't really be said to act independently at all, despite being an introverted function.
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  8. #38
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    As a result of Si-Je methinks. An Si-Dom, however, can be very rebellious. Think Rorschach from Watchmen.
    Rorscharch is a Ti-dom (ISTP).
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Who grew up in two totally different backgrounds and became two totally different people as a result, thus not contradicting my point in any way whatsoever.
    Read the edit. No two people have the exact same life experience. It's virtually impossible unless you lock them in a small room and put them on some sort of prison-like regiment.

  10. #40
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Outside of this thread, I have never heard anyone suggest that INTP is more independent than INTJ. In fact, i can point to numerous authors who would point to the opposite. Knowing myself and knowing others who are INTP, no attempt at a logical argument would convince me that those authors are wrong.
    Perhaps you are working on a different definition of "independence"?

    Theoretically, Ni-dom's, by their nature, are the most independent-minded types. This is why some people would call them "crazy". Because their Ni is filled with ideas that are hard to relate to the present reality. (as a result of inferior Se.)

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